From the EV and the Grid Summit: Vehicle to Grid

More from the EV and the Grid Summit: Vehicle to GridAs one might have predicted, there was plenty of talk about V2G (vehicle to grid) at the EV and the Grid Summit in Los Angeles this week. How could it have been predicted? Because it’s been a topic of discussion at every event of its kind since long before I started showing up in the 2008-timeframe.

The concept is simple: a real-time analysis of all the EVs in a certain region that happened to be grid-connected at a certain moment in time gives rise to a two-way flow of electrons, charging the EVs that demand it, while potentially discharging EVs that have extra charge to spare, as necessary to shave peaks, or, more likely, provide “ancillary services” in the form of voltage- or waveform regulation.

Personally, I’m not sure we’ve gained any ground on this EV/grid nirvana in the years I’ve been following the subject. The reasons that V2G (in my mind anyway) doesn’t pencil out change slightly over time, but it remains very much elusive in any case. Now, for example, we have the “usual suspects”:

• EV owners want to protect their batteries from the degradation of extra cycles.

• The standards are still undefined.

• There are bigger fish to fry, e.g., bringing charge points to multifamily dwellings.

• EV owners who want to make absolutely sure their car is charged sufficiently when it’s needed; after all, having a car with a full tank every morning when we wake up is one of the key drivers of EV adoption.

And now, there are new issues:

• A lot of this will happen (if it ever does) via the ubiquity of smart phone. But there will be EV owners who don’t want the hassle of dealing with day-to-day decisions to make. If my cell phone rings at 3 PM when I’m in a meeting asking me: Craig, do you want to sell 2 kilowatt-hours for $1 apiece? I have to think: it’s my turn to pick up the kids from soccer, and I have to swing by and get groceries; no I better skip this one. It’s simply not an interruption I want in my life.

• The advent of batteries at home provides an alternative for those wishing a back-up in the case of a power outage.

Speaking of power back-up, here’s a point to be made in favor of PHEV (plug-in hybrid)/EREVs (extended range). Suppose you have a power outage in your home, and you have a Nissan LEAF with, say, 20 kWhs of charge in your driveway. If you turn off all non-essential stuff, you can power your house for a few hours. Now suppose you have a PHEV with, in addition to the charge in the battery, a full tank of gas. That will provide power for 5 – 6 days. This benefit extends to camping and other off-grid activities as well.

The concept of V2G may be alluring, but doesn’t seem to be getting any closer.

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14 comments on “From the EV and the Grid Summit: Vehicle to Grid
  1. Micah Erickson says:

    The first wave of v2g will likely be single direction in the form of charge rate curtailment. Chargers typically don’t move, so assigning them to a grid area that needs to be regulated is more manageable. Secondly, this solves one of the major potential issues related to wider adoption of EVs by reducing peak stresses on the grid from charging. It also could go further to provide frequency regulation services through unidirectional power flow.

    The added degradation on the battery would not occur from occasional reduced charge rates, and there is generally less expectation about charge rate assuming the battery is full enough by the time the commute starts.

  2. Tom Szabo says:

    There’s a whole lot more to the VISION far beyond the EV. I never had considered the EV until a very close friend of mine who has to be th greenest people on earth. He’s certainly far reaching. He’s on his second LEAF. I walk into his office just a short time ago and just general conversation, Hey Dave How’s your new EV, Come on you want to drive it? I turned the corner in ten minutes and now my wife wants one. Makes dollar sense to an from her work. But beyond the EV is the people and personality and life styles of the EV. It’s sustainability and these termanlly unique people are also the same people who are into Organic’s, Foods and the list is endless as to the market potential in the arena. Some of them build LEED buildings. WHY its makes total sense and more productiviy by the employee.And the bottom line is the building they just built could absolutely NET 15% more at sale. I guess depending on the area of the country..Where I’m from there’s no leeting up in the GREEN world.

  3. Breath on the Wind says:

    Thanks Craig, a good summation of the issues involved with V2G technology. Judging by the desire for larger batteries even though most people will not usually have a need for them, charge security is an issue for EV owners. Because battery security is a long term issue people will not be as likely focused on it as an issue.

    There might be other ways to frame a utility to consumer V2G proposal than what you hypothesize. Suppose you instead received a msg on your cell phone to trade 5 KWH of electricity from 6pm to 10 pm for 10 KWH returned from 12AM to 6AM. Or supposed you would trade usage of the battery in exchange for an overall reduction of your KWH rate for all your usage. These may be more palatable and less invasive.

    How much power a house uses in 24 hours can vary quite a bit from place to place. Air conditioning and electric heat will demand more while PV panels will lighten the load. In the US this site suggests the number is about 12,000 KWH/ yr. or about 33 KWH/ day. http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/average-household-electricity-consumption If you “turn off the non-essentials” it is likely that most EV would last for more than a few hours and the 80KWH of the Tesla Model S EV could last several days.

    Emergency back up power could be an attractive selling point for the EV. I once was test driving an EV and in my travels speaking to homeowners. On a small farm I was told that the vehicle battery capacity was exactly what was proposed as a battery back up for their Solar Panel system. Having a vehicle attached to their back up battery would be a feature that would make the purchase of an EV a “no brainer.” Most vehicles sit for 23 hours a day. The EV battery, and solar panel battery storage types are compatible. And the price of the vehicle (with rebates) was only slightly more than they were quoted for the solar battery backup system, although pricing has changed a bit from that time.

    You speculate that a hybrid vehicle might be even better but this is not necessarily the case. Not all batteries are created equal. Because hybrid vehicles have an engine they don’t necessarily need range and their batteries are more likely to emphasize power rather than storage. This is certainly true of all non-plug in hybrids and parallel hybrids. Even serial hybrids are less likely to demand deep cycle capacity of their batteries. These vehicles essentially carry a generator around with an EV all the time. While you could use the same generator to power your home (with the right connections) you would have to prove this is a better option than an EV plus a stand alone generator, PV panels (or even a genset trailer) that you don’t have to cart around all the time.

    • Good point here. Thanks.

    • freggersjr says:

      You mention electric heat. Actually, except for heat pump systems, electric heat should be illegal.

      If I had an electric car, I would have to have clear proof that it would be to my economic advantage to permit the utility company to withdraw power from its battery before I would permit it. The economic advantage would have to be demonstrated by a very careful internal rate of return analysis taking battery degradation into consideration. The usual payback method, i.e., years to recover the investment, is not a good way to evaluate investments partly because it does not provide a way to compare the investment with alternative investments.

      • Breath on the Wind says:

        One Northeast owner of a Solar PV system, examining his heating alternatives, installed a geothermal heat-pump system. After several years of use he complained it would have been cheaper to install more solar panels and use cheap resistance baseboard heating. Perhaps a central electric heating plant with heat storage would be a compromise.

        For that spare room, spot heating, ability to zone, and cheap installation price resistance heating has a place. In some places it seems far less useable. Illegal? I appreciate the determination for energy conservation but I think I would have to side with less regulation and more market and situational analysis on this one.

        I speculated that most people seem less concerned about long term effects rather than short term benefits. How else would you explain debt for consumer goods. If your understanding puts you in a different category, I applaud your vision.

        FYI, a payback analysis can be very simple and suffer your criticisms but the fault is in the simplicity not the method. A payback analysis can also be somewhat complex including estimates of the future value of alternative choices.

  4. Breath on the Wind says:

    V2G also requires collective thinking for the group as a whole. A similar cooperative thinking would be required to greatly reduce our need for an electrical vehicle battery by electrifying our (primary?) roadways and transmit power to the EV. One study, I have read has shown that collectively this is the cheapest way to transition to an electrical vehicle system. Wireless charging systems are a precursor to such a system.

    But as long as we have a preference for independence over cooperation, individual vehicles (vs mass transit,) solar panels (and fuel cells vs grid connections, batteries (vs transmitted central power,) and V2house rather that V2G will be supported and advanced.

    • freggersjr says:

      Breath,

      You have made several valid points.

      My bathrooms have supplementary radiant electric heat but the operating time is usually fairly short. Probably I should have said that electric heat as the PRIMARY source of heat should be illegal. There are condominia that have electric resistance heat as the ONLY source of heat and have no gas piped to units even though gas is available. That would now be illegal in some areas. Electric heat never made sense except that it cost the contractor less to install it and the contractor had no interest in the operational costs.

      In moderate climates, electric resistance heat can easily be replaced with air source heat pumps. Mini split air conditioners with heat pump capability work well and with a separate evaporator / condenser for each room (the outside unit can operate several separate inside units), zoning is easy. Although those are common in most other countries, they are not well-known here in the U.S. even though they are available.

      Solar energy for heating can make more sense than solar energy for electricity. Solar heat collectors can have an efficiency greater than 50% whereas PV panels don’t ordinarily exceed 16% efficiency. Heat pump and solar systems can be designed to be zoned. For new construction, either can be used with radiant floor heat. I have radiant floor heat with a gas boiler.

      A problem with long term returns is that if a person sells a house only a few years after putting in a solar system, there is no guarantee that the market value of the house will be increased. I experienced that problem when I lived in San Diego and had a solar water heating system installed because gas was not available. Long term it made sense, but the new owner actually scrapped the equipment. The same problem exists with having extra insulation; when the house is sold, the selling price may be no greater. There may be solutions for that problem (education perhaps?), but the individual home owner can’t do much about it.

      When I got my degree in business administration, we used discounted cash flow to evaluate investments. We knew about internal rate of return, but at that time (1971), the computer technology to compute it easily was not readily available; now it is. Either can be difficult to compute especially when future costs, revenue, and salvage value are not accurately known and have to be estimated. Using payback, it would be difficult to compare the investment with an alternative investment having a return of perhaps 5%.

      • Breath on the Wind says:

        From travels and domestic installations, I have been somewhat familiar with ductless split units for about 25 years. An installed price for a baseboard electric resistance heater might be $250 installed and probably much less per room. An air source heat pump is going to cost $750 to $1800 per room for the equipment. Although manufacturers seem to create them as do it yourself installations, because they come charged with refrigerant and it requires a license to handle refrigerants in the US, installation is likely going to be over $2000 per room. They may not be cost competitive with a window AC and another heat source. At least here in the Northeast. They measure better when compared to a forced air central AC system.

        Also, it is also not unusual here to get temperatures here below 0. Newer Air sourced heat pumps lose practical efficiency below about 20 for older units it was 40. At lower temperatures they supplement or replace the heat pump with simple resistance heating (which you seem inclined to make illegal.) So they can be a good solution in many places but not all. I would like to see more development with thermal solar panels being used to power an absorption air conditioning system. But even this may eventually be more cost competitive in your climate than mine. (more cooling-degree days.)

        Calculating future costs (value) of energy renovations can be complex. But it will be “hard” or “easy” based upon the resources you bring to the task. I once saw a detailed method in a now out of print book published in the 80’s. Estimates are necessarily part of the calculations.

        Rather than making a particular item of construction “illegal” perhaps it might be more wise to define a minimal overall energy performance for new construction and renovations.

  5. garyt1963 says:

    “Emergency Export” capability could have been very useful in New York in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy, or for any similar future situation.

    Second string Critical infrastructure buildings e.g. local clinics / doctor’s surgeries, schools designated as emergency shelters could with 2 way charging facilities and the ability to operate in islanded mode (disconnected from the grid) could be supported during emergencies. Even a few lights operating in such a shelter could greatly reduce the risk of panic, and facilitate treatment of anyone who might be injured.

    (first string critical infrastructure such as Hospitals and the like will have emergency generators).

  6. fireofenergy says:

    Some how, there will be an incentive to install batteries at the house, once the cheaper stationary chemistries come down in price. Car batteries will always be more expensive because they have to be more light weight. The solar will not have nearly as much subsidy, but will be cheaper to mass produce. Installers will lower their prices due to rampant competition. They’ll throw in a “battery deal”.
    Decades later, there might not be much need for any other source except for the molten salt reactors powering wherever environmentalist deem invasive solar land use. Fusion will probably always be more expensive than “mere” fission in a safe meltdown proof reactor until fusion on a chip is discovered.
    Note that the energy put into making the batteries MUST be much less than the total of energy stored in their lifetime (at the large scale). Then it would be “energy ok” to solar charge the house batteries to charge up the car at night.

  7. Les Blevins says:

    The great thing about batteries is they don’t care where the recharge electrons come from. They can come from solar PV, wind, wave, biomass and/or trash conversion and more. One thing that holds back electric vehicles is the manufacturers are unsure which energy source will win out in the long run and they are understandably unwilling to put all their R&D eggs in one basket. Their dilemma is; should they opt for and develop hydrogen vehicle technology or EVs or Hybrid EVs. I’m in favor of local distribution grids and mini and micro grids being powered by conversion of urban wastes and area available agriculturally produced biomass such as from crop residues and/or from dedicated fuel crops and backed up with clean coal conversion when ever needed,, all of which can come from my firms distributed conversion technology that offers low-carbon energy to back up wind and solar and comes with energy storage at little to no cost.

  8. Les Blevins says:

    I might add such a system can produce electric power to supplement the local distribution grid during peak demand or produce hydrogen for cars that use hydrogen and 2nd or 3rd generation advanced liquid biofuels.