Interview with the Electric Drive Transportation Association
Yesterday I had the good fortune to reconnect with an industry colleague, Brian Wynne, the president of the Electric Drive Transportation Association in Washington, DC. The EDTA is an organization supported by members consisting largely of electric vehicle manufacturers and supply chain partners in the electric vehicle industry, whose purpose is to promote the adoption of electric transportation. For years, Brian and his small but energetic staff and have worked tirelessly to assemble and disseminate information necessary for law-makers to make decisions that will ultimately result in the migration of our cars and trucks away from fossil fuels.
In my estimation, the EDTA is a vital force in effecting this massive change that will ultimately pay enormous dividends for all of us, both in terms of stemming global climate change and eliminating our dependence on foreign oil. I was pleased to speak with Brian again, and I’m happy to publish this transcript of our talk.
Craig Shields: What would you say is the state of the EV industry as you see it, Brian?
Brian Wynne: It’s moving forward very quickly. The consumer has an important vote to cast here, and we’ve started with good incentives that will greatly reduce the price premium associated with EVs over their internal combustion counterparts. Now, of course, we just need the availability of vehicles, and this availability changes every week. In addition to the Nissan Leaf, you probably saw that Buick announced a plug-in for 2011.
CS: Yes, the crossover; I did see that.
BW: The gating issue is, as it has always been, batteries. But the Obama administration’s DoE is addressing this aggressively with its $1.5 billion for battery technology development and its $500 million for other components.
The migration to EVs requires the participation of the utilities, as well, and great progress is being made on that front as well.
CS: Please explain for our readers how the EDTA fits in.
BW: We gather and provide objective, credible information to those who need it. We deal with the level of knowledge that exists at any one slice of time, and then provide trustworthy information to build upon that. It’s not journalistic, in the sense of what you folks do at EVWorld, or 2GreenEnergy. We aggregate information and make it available through a variety of sources.
CS: Could you offer an example or two, so we can better understand this?
BW: Sure. Our information is often disseminated through power utilities, as they have relationships with tens of millions of customers. Another example is trade shows. Next year, our presentations on the subject will be made in conjunction with the Washington Auto Show.
And in addition to our consumer-face, of course, we’re lobbyists, we stand for a certain interest. I would say that our interests are completely consistent with the health and safety of everyone on this planet.
CS: Which I suppose can’t be said about every lobbyist on Capitol Hill.
BW: That’s true, but that doesn’t mean that most lobbyists are bad people; they’re simply representing certain interests.
CS: Where is your attention at this point?
BW: Well, one of our jobs is to make sure that this is all coming along in sync and that the policy decisions are providing incentive for the right thing, for example, that they are performance-based, meaning that the biggest credits go to the vehicles that displace the most gasoline.
CS: When I was in your office last fall, we talked about this being a function of the size of the battery. Is that still the case?
BW: Yes. It’s a good assumption that the more kilowatt-hours of energy storage in a plug-in hybrid’s battery, for instance, the less gas will ultimately be used to keep that car on the road.
CS: I write in my blogs, perhaps a bit cavalierly, that what I see as the four main gating factors: OEM production, battery supply, charging infrastructure, and consumer demand, all need to evolve at approximately the same rate – and that I am optimistic that this is, in fact, happening. What do you think?
BW: I guess I agree with that generally, but I have to say that a lot of this is great deal more complicated than it looks. A good example of what makes this so tough is electric power billing. If I’ve driven to grandma’s and I’m charging at grandmas’s, I want the bill to come to me, not grandma.
This is something that has taken a considerable amount of effort to get right, even when you take a much simpler case, say toll collection. Until recently, the RFID device on my car wouldn’t operate anywhere except on the Dulles Toll Road. Now, finally, I can go all the way up to Maine and down to Virginia Beach, which required the integration of systems across various state bureaucracies. The issue is the same—only worse, the power utilities, because they are all regulated differently. Jon Wellinghoff, the chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, is a major player in bringing this all off.
CS: How do you see renewable energy playing a role here?
BW: I believe that renewable energy is the most interesting piece of this whole thing. To be honest, electric transportation is not a major driver to the migration to renewables and to building out a smart grid. But global warming is. Our policy makers are totally focused on avoiding a planetary catastrophe; they will not be backing down on this.
CS: That’s good to know.
BW: And speaking of the smart grid, I see this as becoming the new Internet, in the sense of enabling applications that we couldn’t have dreamed of earlier. Now you’re in a car accident, and you use your I-phone to process the claim in real-time: pictures, insurance policies, drivers licenses, etc. – all enabled by the Internet. The smart grid will have that kind of impact on our lives as well.
CS: Fascinating. Thanks so much, Brian. Great speaking with you again.
BW: I enjoyed it.
A very thoughtful and accurate piece. I think that Brian nailed it when he said, “a lot of this is great deal more complicated than it looks.” With regard to Renewable Energy, I believe that EVs *will* become a significant driver, in that we have already seen that early adopter EV owners are more prone to demand and purchase RE whenever possible. And a number of EV owners have installed PV solar panels on their homes. If and when EVs, EREVs and Plug-in Hybrids can reach *critical mass* – i.e., in the tens of thousands per year (sufficient to begin to lower battery costs) then we are likely to see a cascading effect whereby costs can be lowered and consumer demand, *both* for EVs and RE, is likely to rise.
Sadly, recent surveys have shown that many auto consumers place Global Warming near the bottom of their concerns. The major driver, IMHO, will be *rising gas and diesel costs*, as we witnessed last summer, and which will likely return as the economy recovers. At that point the question will become how rapidly we can ramp up production to meet consumer demand. We are fortunate to have an organization like EDTA working diligently to accelerate this effort.
Fear of global warming is not the incentive needed to drive demand for EVs. If 10% of the effort that has been spent trying to terrify the public about global warming had been spent educating people on the long term benefit to our economy of producing our energy domestically (electricity with ever increasing renewables being used) instead of sending trillions of dollars overseas to buy our energy, then we’d already have 10 million EVs on our roads.
All of the capital lost importing oil can be used to ‘fuel’ our own economy. This is why the large incentives to purchase EVs is the right course for now, and of course because of Peak Oil, EVs will have no trouble displacing ICE vehicles a lot sooner than people realize.
We need a ground up approach to the electric vehicle program(s). First establish a standard cgargin device, not unlike that of gas pumps, available to people crossing the country. Right now the system is so forboding this is one part why people aren´t so willing to make the break with their precious and trustworthy ICE vehicle. It´s not unlike the turn of the 19th century when wires were hanging all over for phones and lights and it was similar to a spider´s web. There was no order. When people pull up to the “pump” there should be an induction paddle (standardised) and an electrical plug (also standardised).. We have the sophistication now for a system to determine at what amperage, volts etc. and indicate when a charge is complete. IT NEEDS TO BE EASY. And we can actually take advantage of existing gas stations to use as dispensing locations, in that way we aren´t running around like chickens with heads cut off. Then of course we need the gurus to get their collective heads together to stndardise the systems to be used. I mean, I would like to go into an Auto Zone and be able to get replacement parts. Being trapped into going back to the dealer- well, the car was expensive enough when I bought it. So, essentially we need to take steps now to minimize confusion down stream and facilitate the ownership of these vehicles. Later the manufacturers could use their workhorses to design and implicate improvements as they come along.
I have some experience with electric vehicles and this is why I believe the standardization is a requied step now.
What could be easier than NEMA standards already in existance and in production??? The onboard charger does the power management at the expense of 30# additional weight.. but there is the ADDITIONAL 30# of adapter cables and plugs I’d like to get rid of.
Quoting ONGOING discussion among EV USERS:
Engineers love to invent techie solutions. Social planners love to dream
> up complex new systems. Big companies love to create proprietary
> standards that they alone can control and monopolize, and finagle ways
> to get the government to pay for them.
>
> But these groups are not likely to produce solutions that are good for
> consumers. They are working to help *themselves*, not EV drivers. As an
> EV driver, what I want is a completely normal standard 120v AC outlet.
> It is cheap and easy to install. It will work today, and it will still
> be working in 10 or 20 years, no matter what charger or EV I have.
“NO truer words spoken! Lee has it right, as usual!Hell! Give me a 240
volt RV plug, to venture into a brave new 240 volt 50 amp world”
Automotive service shops nationwide have service bays that have vacant hours
overnight. These shops would have the ability to convert or retrofit cars, trucks and RV’s from gas to electric. EDTA members could provide electric
motor kits to convert or retrofit vehicles where the engines and drive trains need to be replaced at high mileage. Many of these vehicles have had good care and look great. New electric systems would give them new cost effective
life and provide lower cost electric transportation for years. Our automotive
service centers have 35 bays available from 5pm to 7am daily. The overhead
costs are already paid, so all they require is installer staff for these projects.
I am looking for a supplier of conversion or retrofit kits to make this possible.
This concept could quickly expand nationwide electric transportation.
Jim,
I like your discussion of usage of service bays for conversions. Ex Navy Medic here…and an electric car enthusiast of about two years now. I guess my question would be, what would be the best way to mitigate the average costs of conversions until existing technology improves? Some folks may not be willing [or able] to plunk down $10,000-$16,000 for a conversion of an older car.
What do you think about the possibilities of ‘electric vehicle conversion co-ops’? How about your thoughts on ways to decrease liability issues for the conversions? Last thing anyone wants is an inadvertent ‘thermal event’ and somebody gets sued.
Actually, I wrote a very novice business plan for the concept, would be willing to discuss.
I get the impression that folks don’t really understand the cost of electricity to charge an EV… When the local Costco decided after years of letting my charge my EV while shopping that I was stealing too electricity from them, I called the local power company got their commercial rate and figured out my 3 hour shopping spree cost them about $.45. When I reminded the manager that I had bought over $100. of groceries, they relented. EV owners know how much juice their chargers pull. Grandma will probably accept a cash gift to cover the charge.. Now, I am not charging a racecar or long distance driver at the end of my 225 mile run. I still think my grandma would be tickled to have me visiting her instead of waiting in line at the gas station while her home-cooked goodies get cold.
If she’s living in an area where folks drive NEVs to get around… I am sure the attention the Tesla [or the “EV my granddaughter built”] gets will ensure interesting coffee talk for at least a week = priceless!
Don’t underestimate the HUMAN response.
Hello Craig,
Thanks for your message.
Something is wrong when a country able to send men to the moon forty years ago , is not able to make a clean and efficient car with low prices.
All the innovation is accepted since no collision with the big oil companies,
big car makers and big governmental regulators.
I would like to see to spread the public recharge battery points in the same way as the automatic bank machines. If I want to buy thirty gallons of gasoline in a self-service station, I only need to have a bank card. Any bank
card will be enough. To use a public telephone, the same thing.
So, some things may be easy. Not standardise is bad. doing nothing is worse.
Why electric car ratification takes longer time than a gasoline car?
We must be prepared for all kind of collapses.
Hurricane Katrina was four years ago.
Thanks, Best Regards,
Manuel Gama
The key problem for the hybrid or electric vehicles is the price of these technologies. The average price paid for a conventional passenger car in emerging countries is around 12,000 € and in developed countries around 17,000 €. On the other hand, the average price of a hybrid electric car is around 23,000 €. The difference is 10,000 € in case of the emerging countries and another 5,000 € for the developed countries. But the average price paid for each car directly reflects the average purchasing power and any desire most people would have to preserve the environment, they will not be able physically to pay for a hybrid electric vehicle. It follows that the hybrid electric vehicles are still built for elite and not for the middle class of consumers. Affordable hybrid car price musts to be similar with the conventional car. One way is to reduce the size of the battery package (the most expensive component of the car) . That is possible creating a network which supplies in motion the hybrid vehicles. On other way is the hybridization of the internal combustion its self. Few solutions are presented in the site http://www.hibridesign.com.
You are on the right track. If (as an interim step) we went to true hybrid, starting with large semi-trucks. A two hundred kW generator could provide enough electricity to a 150kW motor that would be capable of pulling the truck and running all the peripherals which would be electric also instead of off the engine using belts. Electric motors are closer to 90 % efficient, a little better than the nominal 30 % for gas motors. You could probably achieve 25 to 50 mpg with range in the thousands miles, not hundreds. Also maintenence would be cut dramatically saving even more.
I am a senior wanting an elect. auto. This auto would be used by my wife and I to run to the store, church, football games, socker games, golf etc. Never out of town and never on the interstate. I vision the car to run about 35 – 40 mph for about 40 miles. Not a golf cart and not open. Possibly seat 4 with a rear hatch and fold down rear seats. It needs to sell for about $10,000.
I would get rid of my Buick used for these trips. My second car would be used for road trips or I would rent one. Charles Sailor
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fuel cells and battery technolagy has come a long way and will continute to do so, but there is a lot we can do now that will create instant results. convert to diesel power. are diesel is 97% cleaner than a couple of years ago, but the real answer is bio-diesel. diesel will get 30% more milage than petrol and about the same improvement in milage as a hybrid petrol vehicle. a diesel hybrid even more. bio-diesel can be made from over 300 plants and trees. and in many case on land not suitable for food crops. the best is algae which produces 1800 gal per acre compared to 44 gpa for soy beans. palm trees is next with apx 600 gpa. all country’ s have waste land. U.S. has millions of acres in the west and algae grows good in hot weather. even municiple sewer plants could grow algae. I along with others including sponsors built a bio-diesel hybrid in a 2003 dodge neon. for less than 50,000 dollars. it runs on 100% bio-diesel and does the job. we didn’t have the extra money to go with lithium batteries which would have make a big difference. 85.00 per battery vs 850.00 per battery. you can see the car at http://www.dixiehybrid.com
No mention of ending the automobile culture. Huh. Amazing.
Most of the driving that people do today is not necessary. Pass a law that corporations must provide mass transportation to employees and see how fast we get rid of zoning laws that separate homes from employment locations. The bottom line is that we have to ask ourselves “What are people FOR?”. How we answer that will not be “To consume everything possible while driving around looking for ways to entertain ourselves.”
Consumption is the problem. Switching cars will not solve the consumption problem.
Some of the suggestions here are laudable: such as conversion efforts. A person can buy a brand new Hyundai, sell the engine and transmission out of it, get the conversion parts from EVAmerica for around 12 grand or so, and have an electric car with less effort than building a new sunroom and a lot cheaper than a Chevy Volt. However, perhaps a new sunroom would allow you to start plants and grow food to sell at a farmers market and avoid needing the car in the first place….
Thanks for all the thoughtful comments. I wrote a blog post on what Tina Juarez wrote on EV charging infrastructure.
As one of the posters stated, too little attention is being given to reducing the need for driving.
I am writing from Ephraim, WI, after having ridden my motorcycle here from Albuquerque, NM. In traveling through many towns and cities, I was distressed to notice that urban planning leaves much to be desired. Towns and cities are too spread out. Shopping centers are often WAY out from town, forcing people to drive long distances to do their shopping. New housing developments are remotely located, making it impossible to live in them without owning a car. In fact, one cannot go any place from a house in those developments without driving. They don’t even have sidewalks.
With better urban planning, people could often walk where they need to go, ride a bicycle, or use public transportation. But with scattered development, public transportation cannot be made efficient.
It is good to work on making electric cars practical, but in addition, more effort should go into urban planning to reduce the need to drive.
As one of the posters stated, too little attention is being given to reducing the need for driving.
I am writing from Ephraim, WI, after having ridden my motorcycle here from Albuquerque, NM. In traveling through many towns and cities, I was distressed to notice that urban planning leaves much to be desired. Towns and cities are too spread out. Shopping centers are often WAY out from town, forcing people to drive long distances to do their shopping. New housing developments are remotely located, making it impossible to live in them without owning a car. In fact, one cannot go any place from a house in those developments without driving. They don’t even have sidewalks.
With better urban planning, people could often walk where they need to go, ride a bicycle, or use public transportation. But with scattered development, public transportation cannot be made efficient.
It is good to work on making electric cars practical, but in addition, more effort should go into urban planning to reduce the need to drive.
I agreed with the insightful perspectives related by Mr Wynne. Was one of the most informative commentaries regarding matters impacting the EV industry that I have encountered.
Bob Sweeney
Southern Electric Vehicle Expo Event Coordinator
I read Craig’s Aug 19 posting of his interview with Brian Wynne of EDTA with great interest. During the interview Craig expressed his concept of the four main gating factors for the successful commercialization of electric vehicles, namely: OEM production, battery supply, charging infrastructure and consumer demand – all needing to evolve at approximately the same rate.
I would like you to consider a fifth and equally important (in my opinion) gating factor – supply of Rare Earth Permanent Magnets. Without REPMs electric traction drives are not possible. The US has no capability to produce REPMs, and even if we did, there won’t be any Rare Earth raw materials from which to produce them. See this article from a few days ago which summarizes the raw material situation very well. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/6082464/World-faces-hi-tech-crunch-as-China-eyes-ban-on-rare-metal-exports.html
Compounding the problem will be the huge requirement for REPMs in the next generation (gearless) wind power generators.
I just read the Interview with the Electric Drive Transportation Association and am so excited there’s an organization that’s giving us a voice in Washington, DC against the oil company lobbyist. I still don’t understand GM exiting bankrupcy pinning all the hopes of their company on car that still uses gas? I’m so excited about the start-up companies that make all electric cars. My next car will be an all electric car. Thank you for all your work.
Have any of you probed into the “Joe-cell” technology?
Either this guy has produced somthing close to miracle technology, or he is an extremely clever hoaxer.
A friend of mine took an A grade mechanic to check out Joes car in operation.
He could find no hidden fuel line or other alternative energy supplies to the engine.
The engine runs off somthing other than the small amount of hydrogen and oxygen that is electrolised from water.
Kromrey alternator.
According to John Bedini, this is typically 120% efficient and one special version he made up is 180% efficient !!
Worth looking at his DVD on this if you are an electronics engineer like myself.
The output provides a steady current over a wide range of speeds (down to about 300 rpm) this much I have found myself in early experiments with this alternator. No such thing as a “free lunch” ? Well this alternator apparently pulls in energy from the environment to a degree.
I am attempting to get the efficiency of my unit up to over the 100% figure.
The obvious goal being to self power the drive motor and hopfully have a practical surplus of wattage.