Only a Few Paying Attention to the Dakota Access Pipeline
Because the Dakota Access pipeline is considered largely a Native American issue, most of us don’t spend too much time understanding what’s actually going on, and the totality of what’s at stake. But here are a few things that everyone should understand:
• The project would span 1700 miles, and crosses over 209 rivers and streams, the water source for 18 million people, in addition to the basis for irrigation for the single largest agricultural region on Earth. This is of concern insofar as the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) has reported more than 3,300 incidents of leaks and ruptures at oil and gas pipelines since 2010.
• The land being used for the pipeline was granted to the Oglala tribe under the 1868 Treaty of Fort Laramie, which agreement was almost immediately ignored when gold was discovered there.
• Still, the region is rife with sacred areas, including ancestral land containing many Indian burial grounds.
• Currently, environmental activists from all over the world have joined Native Americans from dozens of tribes to block the project from moving forward.
• Its developer, Energy Transfer Partners is attempting an end-run to avoid having to produce an Environmental Impact Statement. Their legal tack is to break up the project into hundreds of smaller ones, each of which is less than an acre, under the threshold for which an EIS isn’t required. This is not a loophole, however; the law expressly forbids this type of chicanery.
• The focus of law enforcement here, however, is not on the law-breakers, but on those who are peacefully protesting against the development of the project, under their Constitutionally protected rights. State and local government has brought in an array of military-style equipment, complete with tear gas, pepper spray, and rifles that shoot rubber bullets indiscriminately into crowds of people.
• There are several reasons that the project would be scuttled if it were subjected to an EIS: principally that the American people would see that there are under 40 long-term jobs associated with the pipeline (which is the reason that the Keystone XL pipeline was rejected), and that the oil at stake has nothing to do with U.S. energy independence, as it will be shipped to China.
• Anyone concerned about national security issues associated with the oil should note that the Pentagon believes that climate change is a far larger threat to our nation than the access to oil from this region.
• It is estimated that the pipeline would bring the equivalent of 29 coal-fired power planets into existence.
The only people standing to win from the Dakota Access pipeline are its millionaire and billionaire developers, including none other than Donald Trump who owns a $2 million stake. The people who stand to lose? The other 7.3 billion people on the planet who need fresh air, water to drink and food to eat—all of which are under immediate threat from the climate change brought on largely from the consumption of fossil fuels.
In a televised interview, an executive of the company which will own the pipeline stated that where it goes under the river, the pipe will be of extra heavy construction to be certain that it will not fail. Also, there will be quick acting automatic shut-off valves on each side of the river. However, he said nothing about the fact that it will go under many other rivers and streams. I very much doubt that each one will have a quick acting automatic shut-off valve on each side.
Regardless of what one thinks about the pipeline, it is a well known fact that many, or perhaps even most, of the agreements between the U.S. and the indigenous Americans has been violated by the U.S. That should stop now!
Frank,
From the very beginning, the case advanced by the demonstrators and the reports of their behaviour have been crafted propaganda.
The concept that the pipeline construction was arbitrarily imposed without consultation or environmental impact studies, is completely false.
Over five years of planning and consultation, including very extensive environmental reports were undertaken. The planning and impact statements were the subject of three court challenges, all of which failed. (The last judge pointing out that political/ideological considerations were not relevant).
Whatever safeguards can be effected, the company has guaranteed.
As for your concerns about the interests of Native Americans. Most of the more extravagant claims are either fictitious, or so vague the can’t be substantiated. The claims made by the publicity loving individual ” White Eagle” , might be of more validity if he was actually a Native American and not of Puerto Rican decent !
In fact very few of the Standing Rock tribe seem to be in support of the demonstrators, with the Tribal Council and most local residents exceedingly angry with the demonstrators, a fully endorsing the actions of the Morton County Sheriff.
You are correct when you say that the right of indigenous Americans has been violated, and that should stop now ! But in this case it would appear that the only Native American rights being violated are by the demonstrators, and those cynically manipulating native American issues for political purposes.
Like most issues there are always two sides, the truth usually lies somewhere in between. In this case local interests have been swept aside by the political aspirations of those seeking to use this pipeline as a political/ideological rallying point to regroup after the defeat of the Democrats and left wing ideologues.
The local Native Americans are the victims of fanatical radical crazies, and criminals (some of whom have plead guilty and given evidence) seeking to take advantage of these circumstances.
In the end, either the pipeline will be built, or the oil will continue to be shipped by rail, and when all the fuss has died down the locals will be left to clean up the mess, and try to rebuild their lives destroyed by the demonstrators.
The only losers will be the local native American ranchers, local law enforcement, and the environment.
Craig I think you summed Framed and Summed it up well .
The track record for many of the players operating in Western Dakota and Eastern Montana _ The Williston / Baaken Basin have not practiced good Stewardship over the past 12 years of operations. What gives us reason to think they will practice good practices going Forward???
It is for Export oil/gas market primarily. A money making venture.
Other routes that could have avoided some of the sensitive Riparian areas and Native American lands could have been selected.
Its 27 degrees out there and the Armed thugs working for a contractor pay check are Spraying People with cold Water – there will be more human suffering.
The same company Energy Partners is building 3 large pipelines in Texas going into Mexico. In the Big Bend area of Texas ( North of it) the pipeline has crossed over some sensitive places but not to the degree like in N Dakota.
One hears different things so factual charges not available.
Closer to the Farming Valley South of El Paso Tx Energy Partners decided to lay the pipeline under farm fields and irrigation canals .
Factual evidence
They were coming in from the East and could have made their pipeline cross the Rio Grande River in a non farmland area and crossing
the River there would have been benign. But they plowed ahead into the farm fields and now they have caused 8 or 10 canals to collapse down onto the buried pipelines direction as it goes South to cross the Rio Grande and into Mexico. The Billionaire C Slim from Mexico is involved.
So once again we see the failure of these Hyper Rich backers fail to balance Profit with Good Stewardship! Trumper has $2 million investment in Energy Partners.
Craig the bigger issue is that The Global target for 2 degrees warming can not be met if we don’t Stop expanding fossil fuel usage.
Most studies predict Dire outcomes given the current situation.
So it is more important and serious than most think.
The N Dakota pipeline is the Tip of the Spear that is aimed at eroding the progress being made reducing carbon.
We have reached Epic Tipping Point Events looking at it from a GHG view!
Buenos días Señor Silent,
“Rio” is Spanish for river. In Spanish, the adjective follows the noun. So, it’s the Rio Grande, not the River Big River.
Except for that mistake, which is very common with people from the East, you post was very good.
And no, I don’t know Spanish, except for a few words. Spanish is widely spoken here, often as the first language.
¡Buenas noches!
Craig I think you summed Framed and Summed it up well .
The track record for many of the players operating in Western Dakota and Eastern Montana _ The Williston / Baaken Basin have not practiced good Stewardship over the past 12 years of operations. What gives us reason to think they will practice good practices going Forward???
It is for Export oil/gas market primarily. A money making venture.
Other routes that could have avoided some of the sensitive Riparian areas and Native American lands could have been selected.
Its 27 degrees out there and the Armed thugs working for a contractor pay check are Spraying People with cold Water – there will be more human suffering.
The same company Energy Partners is building 3 large pipelines in Texas going into Mexico. In the Big Bend area of Texas ( North of it) the pipeline has crossed over some sensitive places but not to the degree like in N Dakota.
One hears different things so factual charges not available.
Closer to the Farming Valley South of El Paso Tx Energy Partners decided to lay the pipeline under farm fields and irrigation canals .
Factual evidence
They were coming in from the East and could have made their pipeline cross the Rio Grande River in a non farmland area and crossing
the River there would have been benign. But they plowed ahead into the farm fields and now they have caused 8 or 10 canals to collapse down onto the buried pipelines direction as it goes South to cross the Rio Grande and into Mexico. The Billionaire C Slim from Mexico is involved.
So once again we see the failure of these Hyper Rich backers fail to balance Profit with Good Stewardship! Trumper has $2 million investment in Energy Partners.
Craig the bigger issue is that The Global target for 2 degrees warming can not be met if we don’t Stop expanding fossil fuel usage.
Most studies predict Dire outcomes given the current situation.
So it is more important and serious than most think.
The N Dakota pipeline is the Tip of the Spear that is aimed at eroding the progress being made reducing carbon.
We have reached Epic Tipping Point Events looking at it from a GHG view!
Craig,
I note with great disappointment that once again you have simply repeated the ill-conceived propaganda of pipeline opponents.
Once again you parrot the lies and distortions by these people who don’t give a damn about the environment, but are solely motivated by political ideology.
The Native Americans involved are mostly misguided, radicalized, or criminal renegades.
The violence began when a group armed with weapons and attack dogs attempted to overwhelm company guards and steal stored explosives.
The majority of actual Tribal members are angry at the demonstrators and satisfied by the companies assurances. These Native Americans support the actions of the Morton County Sheriff and his native American deputies. These are the true stakeholders.
These native American tribal landowners, (the real Native Americans living in the area,) do not agree with your description of events, so why do you persist in ignoring their experiences ?
These folk have been assaulted,(including sexually) intimidated, had their land violated, attempts at arson, stock killed and stolen, property destroyed, including rare and endangered species, been forced to clean up the rubbish and human excrement left by the protestors you so biasedly support.
Where is your compassion for these people ?
Where is your compassion and sense of outrage for the young female sheriff’s deputy assaulted and beaten when caught alone by violent protestors ?
Where is your sense of outrage are the violations of the rare Buffalo and endangered desert plant sanctuary operated by local native Americans by violent demonstrators with criminal intent ?
Why do you remain so silent at the rights of these people being violated, the physical safety attacked, their property (often the result of a lifetimes work) destroyed ?
Why are these Native Americans not worthy of your sense of compassion?
This is the third time I have asked you for a reply. In my other posts I identified the local landowners (Native American tribes people) and a list of outrages documented by sworn testimony.
Perhaps the saddest observation by one local rancher,( a native American Council member of the Standing Rock reservation ) sums up the attitude of the protestors.
“One day I was fixing the fence, and I looked behind me, and they’re cutting the fence just as fast as I’m fixing it along the highway,” Mr. Fischer said. “I said, ‘Hey guys, what’s the deal,’ and pretty soon there’s 75 people on the other side of the fence, and they’re yelling at you, that you’re a greedy oil person, you stole their land, and everyone’s screaming at you.”
Regrettably, you seem to have adopted the attitude of the demonstrators. It doesn’t matter about the truth or the trail of destruction you leave behind, as long as your ideological position is being imposed on others !
After all the violence, what can be achieved ?
Even if the pipeline wasn’t built the oil would only be shipped by rail ! More dangerously, more risk to the environment, more risk to the landowners, etc, but a lot more profit for the Democrat number one donor, Warren Buffet !
I don’t argue with you; I never have and never will. I would think a sharp guy like you would have noticed this after all these years. Reason: It’s a waste of time. You will always come up with something that justifies your positions:
Fossil fuels are good for our civilization
Climate change isn’t a problem, or at least it’s not important enough for government to intervene
Renewable energy only works if subsidized
There no evil people (e.g., the Koch brothers), nor evil groups (e.g., ALEC)
The US Congress is free of corruption from the oil companies
Ideologies of peace and environmental stewardship are childish and naive
Protest against moral wrongs in the world is a worthless pursuit and tends to embolden the other side
Etc.
I don’t know who pays you, and thus I don’t understand your motive. No matter. Bottom line: Post whatever you want here. I’m sure you’ll persuade some people, but a) I won’t be one of them and b) again, I’m not wasting my time arguing with you.
Good Evening Frank – thanks for playing with my spelling error.
Other Commentators please disregard my mistake. Good Geographical Eye Frank.
1 of the Texas pipeline leaves the Southern region of Permian Basin and cuts across the Trans Pecos area N of Big Bend Nat Park. Where the Rio Grande does flow at the bottom of the Cliffs.
This pipe goes to Presidio Tx a small farming and trading community of 3,000 or so. The pipe crosses into Mexico and will transverse the Mexican part of the So Rockies. Not too many issues.
But as I said the otehr 2 pipelines very easily could have crossed the river at the end of the irrigated valley and the permits etc would all be much less.
But no they plowed into the farmlands and as I said 8 or 10 irrigation canals have collapsed. So obviously Energy Transfer Partners needs to do better Civil Engineering etc.
Marco I have my satellite radio on and they continuously interview different protestors and I don’t detect that they are paid organizers from the interviews.
So please confirm your news sources. You mention Morton Cty so I will go google that and see what gives.
You are right about trains shipping Baaken Oil and the wrecks and fire issues that have occurred over the past 6 years. That point is taken properly.
But as Craig said and I said earlier – we need to keep carbon resources in the ground if we are going to Seriously Offset existing CO2 levels etc. That is my perspective.
Let China squirm for more OIL drive up prices so more EV s get competitive etc.
Maybe less dirty bunker fuel is burned as a result !
We need to leverage things better over here. The new oil fields in TX all have acccess thru existing pipelines to the Tx and Louisiana Coast refineries so the greedy carbon co.’s can realize their Decades Long Dreams of Exporting Crude or Gasoline for Green cash.
That is the bigger Issue so I write from that Viewpoint.
Frank while many over the years think I am from back East I am a SW lad run up and down I 25 to Montana and So NM. A Nomad of Sorts !
Thanks Senor Running
Silent,
I have acquired much of my material from court evidence, statements and affidavits, and from information provided by locals.
Naturally the media and the very experienced media savvy protestors have swamped the internet and social media with only the protestors viewpoint.
However, stories in the local media are beginning to emerge revealing a different version of events.
[http://dailysignal.com/2016/11/17/the-facts-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-that-protesters-dont-want-you-to-know/]
[http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/14/dakota-access-pipeline-reservation-ranchers-strugg/]
Many local Native Americans feel intimidated by the activists, especially with so many arriving from interstate. They’re unhappy about the protests, but feel pressured not to betray solidarity members of the tribe protesting, some of whom have reputations for violent retribution.
(It’s a bit like a union Strike.)
I can understand the desire for opposition to the pipeline resulting in a decrease in oil usage. But is that really practical? Do you see that actually occurring ? Or in reality, will the oil simply be shipped by rail ?
Can the US do without oil ? Obviously the answer is no. Should oil be more expensive ? Well, sending supplies by rail will be more costly, but won’t affect usage. The cost will be borne by the consumer and the US economy.
The Obama administration should have taken the challenge, and imposed a higher fuel tax at the pump. The tax could have been reserved to defray the cost of the US military, thus making opposition seem unpatriotic, but assisting to reduce US debt.
Alternatively, he could have labeled the tax for aged healthcare. After all a few extra cents at the pump to look after older Americans isn’t likely to prove unpopular !
But Obama/Clinton/Sauders took the soft option and tried to curry support from greens and “tax the rich” proponents, thus opening the door to a populist.
Sigh…
Craig,
Forgive the length of this reply, but I feel it’s important.
Unfortunately, no one pays me !
Your list of my ‘positions’ is not accurate. I certainly don’t believe to ” protest against moral wrongs in the world is a worthless pursuit” ! (although, I am careful about the definition of ‘moral’ ).
In fact I believe it’s not only admirable to do so, but a duty.
Indeed this is an instance where I am protesting a ” moral wrong being perpetrated” !
I’m not selective about the victim. I believe a moral wrong is wrong because of the act, not the “worth” of the victim.
I also believe if you make a statement, you should be able to justify why you believe it to be accurate and be prepared to change your mind when creditable evidence is advanced to the contrary.
My question to you was sincere. I was genuinely interested as to why the outrageous treatment of environmentally conscious, native American land owners, at the hands of a lawless, fanatical mob, was beyond your scope for compassion.
I genuinely expected a reply condemning the misbehavior of the elements, or at the least outrage at the fate of the flora and Fauna.
Alternatively, If I’m wrong, or inaccurate, and you provided evidence of my error, I would be delighted to have my concerns proved groundless.
But, I didn’t expect such a contemptuously dismissive reply !
Just to clear up some other misconceptions.
1) “Fossil fuels are good for our civilization”. If I have a position it’s this;
Fossil Fuels have proved very beneficial in building our civilization and the worlds economy. While Fossil Fuels have proved to possess negative aspects, until they can be adequately replaced (without massive economic disruption)there’s little point in demonizing the people and organizations providing the energy that makes advanced economies possible.
Only advanced and strong economies can develop and implement transitional change from fossil fuels. Extravagant claims, or artificially enhanced results will only prove counter-productive in the long term.
2) Climate change is a very real issue, but it’s become so heavily infused with irrelevant ideological/political doctrines that the actual science has got lost in all the advocacy. Ill-conceived government “intervention” based on ideology rather than science, will only prove counter-productive and lead to the election of populists.
3) ” Renewable energy only works if it’s subsidized”
On the contrary, I’m a supporter of Geo-thermal, some nuclear, Hydro-power, suitable applications of Solar or Wind, even the potential for H2 for maritime usage.
4)” There are no evil people,ie; Koch bros, American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) and congress is not corrupted by oil company money.
While I don’t agree with the political positions of the Koch brothers (although to be fair, they don’t always agree with each other) or the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), I can’t describe them as ‘evil’ simply because they hold different views from myself.
I think “Evil” is an extremist term, I don’t apply it lightly.
5) “The US Congress is free of corruption from the oil companies”
Obviously, the Oil Industry is a huge part of the American economy, and the dominant industry of a number of states. It makes sense US politicians, especially from oil/gas producing states will be very supportive and influenced. Just as politicians from Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska etc would be foolish to ignore the farm lobby, nor would the Congressman from Florida’s 1st congressional district ignore the needs of service personnel.
The fact that the ethanol industry still exists, and large number of members of Congress vehemently opposed to the Oil industry exposes the concept of Congress being a corrupt tool of the Oil Industry to be a wildly exaggerated myth.
6)”Ideologies of peace and environmental stewardship are childish and naive”
Again, a generalization. While peace and environmental stewardship are laudable aspirations, carried to the extreme they can become dangerous and irresponsible.
I do support viable, economically sound and practical clean technologies. I support government policies that provide sensible incentives, and subsidies to develop and establish economically viable clean tech.
But most of all, I believe every advocate must be able to adequately debate and justify their advocacy in a reasonable fashion.
My motivation ? I write as a pastime, a relaxation from dreary analysis when traveling. It takes up only a small amount of time, and keeps me away from the bar !;)
Like you, I’m interested in the environment. Like you, I try to promote new technology. Unlike you, I see political doctrines as as an impediment when addressing environmental issues. I believe in inclusion, not exclusion.
I have always admired your dedication to promoting clean tech, and practical environmental solutions. Accordingly, I’m anxious that your valuable message is not lost in the sort of sort of political/ideological quagmire that’s occurred with so many environmental advocates.
As Lawrence pointed out, you can only fight on so many fronts before the message becomes confused and focus dissipates.
(Oh, I forgot to mention, I’ve actually visited Morton County some years ago to learn about the successful reintroduction and commercialization of previously endangered species).
I understand that there have been incidents of violent clashes between the protesters and the police. To say that the protesters are more violent than the police, however, or that the majority of protesters are violent, are both completely incorrect.
Craig,
Thank you for your reply.
At the risk of seeming argumentative, The question must be asked how do you know what you claim is true ?
I mean, unless you are an eyewitness (even that can be deceiving) we are both judging the situation from media reports.
Your claim that the Police are more violent than the demonstrators may be true, but then again it also may not. The police are the traditional enemy of demonstrators, who have no qualms of attacking police whom the see as agents of oppression, preventing the demonstrators ambitions.
I accept the majority of the later demonstrators are probably quite well behaved and certainly well-intentioned.
It’s also true that for a relatively small town police department, Sheriff Kyle Kirchmeier seems to have acted with remarkable forbearance and control against an escalating situation far beyond his departments training or experience.
But, again I emphasis neither of us can really judge, except from the media.
But what about the testimony of those dissenters brave enough to speak out ? Are they liars ? What about the published experiences of the ranchers (also tribal members) ? Are they liars?
What about their experiences, don’t they deserve some compassion ?
That’s the trouble with being so partisan. Because you identify with the demonstrators cause, everyone else becomes an ‘evil’ enemy.
In fact, the police are only performing their sworn duty. just as those peaceful demonstrators are only participating in exercising their rights guaranteed by the constitution.
The violence, is created by those elements among the demonstrators who for radical, or just criminal, motives have decided upon a course of violent confrontation.
Do you really condone that behaviour?
No matter how sympathetic to the cause, do you really condone the theft and slaughter of rare and endangered animals ? The trashing and destruction of endangered flora ?
Do you really not want to speak out against the bullying and oppression of folk like the unfortunate sanctuary owners ?
Why do I think it’s important ? Because in recent times so many demonstrations end badly. After the media depart, and every loses interest, the local communities are left to repair the damage, not just to property, but to the lives and community relationships.
In the UK the Unions and socialist left, fought bitter battles leaving a wake of bitterness hatred and social division.
Their causes ranged from a desire to keep the coal industry alive (ironic when you consider today’s attitudes of the left to coal), to maintaining 19th century technology in the print industry.
The level of bitterness was intense, and violent. Not as violent as the US or France (The British police are better trained) but still violent.
Those workers or community members who dissented were ostracized, even terrorized, by fanatics.
I was an eye-witness to the tactics employed by radicals against the police. The radicals would carefully stage a series of provocations, until the police reacted, the provocation were often orchestrated in conjunction with the media, who would then report the police reaction, not mentioning the level of provocation.
Surely it’s important in any conflict for bad behaviour to be condemned. But condemnation must be apportioned fairly and without bias, or the scars never heal.
The demonstrators have access to the courts, which is where such matters should be decided. (or arbitrated).
Why do I think it’s more important for you to speak out than me?
Because you are an influential voice in the US “green” community. if you speak out against the cheers of your own supporters and call for fair play, while expressing sorrow for the misbehavior of radicals, three benefits will occur;
1) The radical elements (or just opportunistic trouble makers) won’t feel entitled, or endorsed.
2) The victims will feel less alone and lessen their sense of injustice.
3) Joe Public will have more faith in the credibility of a movement that fairly and open-mindedly can criticize it’s own excesses, and maintain principles.
Craig, for those reasons, I believe it should be your voice to express regret at the misbehaviour experienced by the sanctuary owners.
@ Marco, I read with interest your long reply to Craig. Some of your points apply to the failure of the politicos to properly address many of these ills. Our system is very broken now.
On the pipeline I stated that they should have picked a different route like North and then East along the existing pipelines corridor s .
There are already lines running East and then they could have gone South and avoided the Big Missouri River as they would be East of it.
Perhaps there are financial reasons for not doing so?
You fail to recognize that I stated use the Texas oil surplus as the pipelines are in place and closer to the refineries. The output of these pipelines Sir are For the Export Market – this is not going to lower gas prices for locals who dont care about global warming anyways. They just care about cheap gas so they can drive their big un necessary trucks and preserve their burn it up use it up culture of Wanton Consumption!
So very little of this oil will directly benefit the American Consumer. That story is rarely told as are the false job projections used by the supporters. Media failure again.
Obama a decent man who I supported made many a Tactical and Strategic mistake during his 8 years. He failed to use the TV and public speaking to sell his agenda. Failed to Keep the consumer oriented public engaged.
Watching all the same GOMERS jump up and down for a talked about trumper Infrastructuree build out is appalling as Obama tried 5 times to get something going and was rejected by the same Gomers in congress.
The difference is trumper is going to carve out a hidden profit piece for the money boys so all of sudden Spending big money on something is Cool again. The phoniness of it ALL.
The Morons were duped and have voted for more Cronyism and pay to play the things they railed against. Hilarious but tragic at same time.
You damn right they should have passed a gas tax and used the money for good sectors. But not the military we spend too much now.
They should have sold Bonds with Interest Rates low and people little people could have invested in america and we would have many more people working productively now. Where are All those Patriotic Gomers when needed ??
The lack of political backbone in our country is sad and leads to ineffective government etc.
Back to the pipeline I appreciate your links will read them
But over the radio the Chief of Standing Rock Nation David A comes on radio and he is part of the protest. So this is very confusing if your positions are valid?
The bigger issue which I speak to and Craig speaks to and others is that if we are going to reverse Global warming we must begin leaving certain carbon resources in the ground. We have no shortages .
We have adequate resources. The Worlds Global Fleet of Off Shore Drilling ships sits idle in various Ports.
What do you say about that! speak to these Facts Marco. Stop making your accusations about blind idealism and movement politics. etc.
Furthermore Solar and Wind are cost effective Now. The small tax breaks they get are PALE to the centuries long subsidy that Fossil Fuels has and still receives to this Day
Your claims are False Red Herrings Mate !
As I have written before NY is subsidizing 3 middle aged Nukes for 12 more years or so at a cost of $ 8 Billion.
Now In Illinois the legislature is looking at a new package of subsidy for two middle aged Nukes for Billions plus they are going to allow capacity payments for old coal ( dirty coal) plants in So Illinois so they dont get closed. More subsidy for fossil fuels!
And these subsidies are before the trumpster starts throwing our tax money around like candy to the carbon heads.
This morning on a very early tv news show they had a chart that shows jobs in coal and Oil/gas. The numbers totally debunk Trumpers claims of millions of new jobs in these sectors being possible.
FYI an everyone else reading this In the 1920’s Coal peaked at over 800,000 jobs now they are down to around 65,000. So Obama’s so called War on Coal is another Red Herring! The War was over before Obama became President. Obama gets a A for his work there.
Gas and oil had close to 500,000 jobs in 2014 at drilling peak now they are down to 187,000 or so.
Blowing Holes in the trumpism Hype and Slogans!!!! but too many Americans are simple minded consumers and they are bumper sticker driven!
Solar has over 225,000 jobs now spread around most States and it grows.
Forgive me for going off in this direction but it is part of a consistent pattern to Take a Stand based on Facts!
Opinions are ok everyone can have one but they cant compete with Facts. one’s opinions cant stand up to Facts and Facts are stubborn things they dont go away.
Your convoluted thesis on there is no corruption of our congress by Oil Industry is a Tall Tale Marco.
Ethanol a bad idea for sure was pushed by Gomer GOP congressman and Senators as a way to grow more corn so the Agri Business would make more money. the oil co liked it as the increased diesel usage and fertilizer would increase their sales etc. Banks liked it as the farmers would become indentured servants to the corn growing to service their loans.
They arm twisted some weak Dems to go along with it and now after 15 years or so it is ingrained into the economic / politico system.
So place your blame directly at the Sinner Marco The ROOT Cause of this the Heartland GOP the purveyors of mythical free markets and limited government until it can be used to help big business get bigger. The way it is.
Now America has even more Corn and corn sugar to export to the World and make people sicker and fatter etc. The Auto co have re configured their engine systems etc to handle the blended ethanol and its all in place now.
Go rail against that un economic system instead of taking cheap shots at good causes. ALEC has corrupted many a state legislation .
I have served as a volunteer for a leading Texas State Senator 5 years and have attended 100 hours on anti ALEC training etc. You are selling Red Herrings again.
Perhaps as Craig said you may be Trolling for some right wing conservative groups. I dont know. It would explain how you distort peoples comments and facts. Talk around them rather that speak to them .
Silent,
Thank you for your reply.
Most of your ‘facts’ are really just opinions, no doubt sincerely held, but opinions.
Let me see if I can clarify any misconceptions.
1) The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) is a group designed to promote and support politically like minded politicians and political activists. The organization is primarily designed to influence public opinion and support certain types of legislation.
While I don’t support ALEC’s policies, I recognize the organization as being a legitimate participant in the body politic, just as AFL-CIO, Change to Win, Center on Media and Democracy, Common Cause,League of Conservation Voters,State Innovation Exchange (SiX) (formerly the American Legislative and Issue Campaign) and thousands of other activist groups.
But because I don’t support ALEC, doesn’t make them “Evil”. It’s not ‘corrupt’ in a democracy to be more successful in influencing an election, or legislation.
2) The company building the pipelines claims the reason is not financial . The route was selected as the least environmentally harmful (supported by studies)and confirmed by the US Corp of Engineers. So far that explanation remains unchallenged by any independent expert.
2) As I stated, in every dispute there are always two sides, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Without doubt there are demonstrators who are peaceful, and well behaved.
No Doubt some of the Native American leaders are sincere, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t dissent, nor does it mean their version of events is accurate.( after all, Donald Trump is the official “chief” of the US :)). It’s important to hear what the victims of these demonstrators have experienced, and their opinions, not just listen to one side.
3)You may not be aware, but the US has always been a major exporter of refined oil products. Crude imported oil has always been imported, and re-exported as value added products, even during the Oil Crises. Although these products are not used by US consumers, the value to the US in balance of trade and foreign earnings helps the US economy.
The world is currently experiencing an oil glut. This means lower prices and as a result, marginal oil production will remain idle awaiting higher prices.
4) The US oil industry employs directly and indirectly, over 28 million Americans. If you look around your home, or work place, nearly everything you see (including your keyboard) has a component of oil. Even my Tesla uses electronics made from oil, tyres, Paint, plastics, ceramics, and countless other items, including the blacktop highway, are oil products. (The Petro-Chemical industry produces over 350,000 products).
Oil industry dividends fund the vast majority of US superannuation and retirement income. It’s estimated that the oil industry is a huh as 26% of the total US economy.
Like you, I find the fashion trend for large 4 wheel drive vehicles that never leave suburban streets aggravating, but what’s to be done ? If consumers will insist on such inappropriate vehicles, they’re just exercising their democratic right to free choice. ( still irritating )
5)No meaningful subsidies exist for the oil industry, despite the industry being the largest single US taxpayer, and the most valuable. (IRS facts, not mine).
6) The Coal industry is dying largely because it can’t compete with natural gas, and the sooner it’s obsolete the better. However, it still remains for many nations the only economic source of industrial energy.
7) Your dislike of the supposed flaws economic system, is not a “fact”(except in as much as you dislike it). It’s an opinion, maybe a valid opinion, but still just an opinion.
Economic systems reflect the conditions of human society. As nations grow larger, economies become far more complex and less manageable. It’s only natural for individuals to feel insecure and yearn for a simpler, more guaranteed society.
I don’t think it’s possible, while retaining a social system that puts the rights of individuals before the state (or collective). It’s a constantly changing balancing act between what’s good for all, for some, and preserving individual rights.
Despite it’s size and complexity, the US strives to meet all those divergent dynamics within it’s social fabric with remarkable success. No system is perfect, but the US tries to remain a society with free and democratic values.
On a closing note, I have no “right-wing” agenda ! I don’t think you noticed my comment regarding a more inclusive environmental movement. A movement free of divisive left (or right) political agenda.
Now, I don’t want you to take this the wrong way, but your boast that you ” have served as a volunteer for a leading Texas State Senator 5 years and have attended 100 hours on anti ALEC training”, displays a level of commitment to political causes, (as is your right) but also shows you very committed to one particular partisan set of belief’s.
Those who don’t share your particular convictions are not “wrong” ” evil” or the enemy, they’re your fellow citizens. Yelling at dissenters, calling them the enemy or accusations of belonging to ‘conspiracies” Trolls’ etc, are the politics of exclusion.
I try to encourage among those interested in the environment and clean tech, a tolerance of the views or others, the value of debate, and encouraging understanding for the inclusion of a wider audience.
I believe progress can only be achieved by being more open minded, less intolerant and more inclusive.
The fanaticism, intolerance and perception that environmentalism, is just a cloak for left extremists, has done so much arm to achieving any positive environmental progress. For years I’ve warned that a policy of exclusion, and intolerance would result in the general public turning to populists with anti-environmental agenda’s.
I’m afraid the only, reaction was for the strident left to shout louder (usually at me:)).
@ Marco
Kind Sir I strongly suggest that you come over to the States and go camp out with the Protesters in ND and see for your self and take a poll of participants and you will see and learn that it is the common people that are fighting the pipeline. Not paid organizers.
The brutality of the Morton Cty police and their hired contractors is being documented and broadcast on different media outlets. Video taken by Drones are showing mean contractors aiming the stun grenades
directly at women and men and doing serious harm to them. Some may lose limbs. The video shows the contractors laughing etc.
So there is ill will building up.
The issue is going to go into the hands of a Federal Judge and the Corp of Engineers may not have followed its rules when granting the routing permits. We will have to wait to see how this plays out.
It is reported that a large Norwegian Bank that was under writing some of the investment is pulling out of supporting the pipeline project. They have become convinced that it is not a good project. This is going to put stress on the Pipeline co investment groups. The knowledge of this development has spread threw out the protesters groups and they see more chance at Victory now .
It is Emboldening them further.
Depending on the duration of the Court hearings key Permits for other parts of the pipeline may expire and this will cause delays etc. So this will put more economic pressure on the Energy Partners firm.
Other financial backers may pull away.
So how all these things play out is undetermined.
The Texas Pipelines by same co is now going into Court due to the Civil Engr mistakes that I noted in other Posts. Federal Court.
So more stress on the company. Perhaps the Trumper who is a investor of a few million may come to rescue the pipeline co who knows.
I am just reporting to you what is broadcast over the airwaves and from some live interviews with Activists on the radio from that region. I have no skin in the game other than a knowledge that if we are going to Turn the Tide against further Environmental degradation then we have to begin leaving some carbon resources in the ground.
Of course I sympathize with the Native Americans as they have been victims of Oppression by the United States for decades and grave injustices done to them.
This is well documented in government records and common knowledge.
There exists strong lines of cultural racism in the Dakotas and other No Rocky Mtn States against the Native Americans. The politics of that is too long a sad story. Difficult to fix as long as the resource extraction co. fail to reward the Native Americans with decent oil and gas royalties from the extraction of resources.
If these company s along with the State Governments would agree to more equitable resource royalties or serious reinvestment of some of the profits into these dirt poor communities .If it was done then the Native Americans perhaps would buy into so called Progress Projects and the interests of both business and culture could both benefit.
It is unknown if this will ever happen due to the lingering cultural racism engrained in the GOP politics of those states. Deep Ill Will festers over generations because Strong Leadership does not appear on the Scene.
Marco as for ALEC – You insulted the training experience as not being accurate.
We were given documented stories of what the group does in many other states to under mine the will of the voters and re shape legislation into the goals of specific corporate interests. Many of the attendees were Republican voters and they came away shocked at how their party has become beholden to special interests that go against their personal positions as well.
We had speakers from 11 states bring information to us and case studies. ALEC is no friend of a modern Democracy whether one is Republicon or Democrat or Independent. It is usually either big business or some culturally divisive group trying to undermine good government that balances out the interests of ALL people .
ALEC is designed to brain wash legislators into doing the bidding of these interests under the guise of some other goal. It is funded by KOCH Bro. and is a by product of the famous L Powell document of the early 1970’s that wrote the Blueprint for taking over America by corrupting from within. Google it – it is the playbook.
The information was extensive and not just Partisan information I beg to differ with you Marco. But you speak from a alternative Reality place it seems.
ALEC in my opinion is UN American and Evil. It is why things dont work well in the states these days. School Education has been undermined I could go and on. But it is not worth the effort.
Damn ALEC has undermined good Environmental rules in the name of making a Money for a special interest. That is what they do.
So you may pontificate that it is all part of the process and accepted etc. That is your position and you can keep it. but I will line up many people who would confront you with a much stronger opposite position.
ALEC has no place in these discussions concerning green technologies or policies that can improve conditions.
But their ugly track record in many states under mining good Environmental or Energy Efficiency public policy drags them onto the stage. They have gotten RED states to roll back excellent energy efficiency programs that work for all and create markets, Jobs for businesses to sell and prosper etc. Counter productive. They are pro longing coals damages to all of us !
Until you acknowledge these Major Transgressions Marco then your credibility as a Advocate for a more Sustainable Future is in serious doubt Mate!
I sent Craig a long article on the ND pipeline situation and asked him to post it on this site for all to read and make their opinions on. Maybe he will do this.
You make some interesting points about Elements of the Environmental Movement being taken over by extreme types that has caused Blowback
to the greater cause. There is Truth to your position it is not absolute but some Truth.
Your point has some Merits as all causes it seems get corrupted and it is counter productive to the greater goal. The flawed human condition.
I have known for years we export refined products . We used to buy thick Venezeulan Oil and re fine it for them. but when the late Hugo Chavez went to extreme political positions the US stopped doing that. It hurt them but they got way out of line and now that country is really hurting . Sad deal. The extremists caused that.
The thing about these pipelines is that they are sold to public as great job creators and keeping low gas prices etc so people can drive the excessive big vehicles that they dont need. ( we actually agree on that)
These are False Strawman talking points common from GOP types. They are just for the financial interests of the players. So the issue comes down to does the public want to support it or no longer support it once they learn or figure out that the gas goes to other nations!
That is the questions till the court procedures are completed and then perhaps it will be answered.???
From the Voices over the radio I hear strong commitment to Standing UP to the Economic Forces in many different ways going forward. So damage is being done and positions are going to Harden.
Who knows Acts of disruption along the completed pipeline may be in the future. Young people are being indoctrinated into resentment towards the system of oppression. Another cultural tick tock division!
On the March to the Cliffs Some Lose their Credibility to the Cause.
Silent,
I was aware of the existence of ALEC and its goals although probably new people are.
Could you provide links to videos about the demonstrations?
Silent,
Thank you for your reply.
Ok, now just as an exercise, pretend you are a neutral person and re-read your post. If you do, you will see that you write from a predetermined position and belief structure.
There’s nothing wrong with that, passionate belief can be praiseworthy, but it does obscure objectivity.
That’s the problem with listening (and believing) only one side.
No doubt the people supporting ALEC are just as passionate and sincere in their beliefs.
In the word of buffalo Springfield;
” Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side”
You seem to ignore the testimony of Native American dissenters (or are only some Native Americans worthy?)
I provided an insight into the behavior of the protestors experienced by the owners of a local bison and rare plant sanctuary, does their testimony count for nothing ?
So far, no one has expressed any dismay or sympathy for their plight.
What about those the experience of the young female deputy who was beaten and assaulted by a mob, doesn’t her experience mean anything ?
What about the 11 security guards hospitalized who (by the attackers own admission) were attacked by hundreds of demonstrators, some of whom have admitted were attempting to steal explosives ? The guards attacked no one, they were behind locked fences. For a conflict to arise the demonstrators had to tear down those fences. Or is that “alternate reality” ?
As I said to Craig, none of us are eye-witnesses. We all rely on the media and staged interviews with partisan participants.
That why I find the testimony of the sanctuary owners, compelling. It isn’t biased or have a passionate agenda. They have no motivation to lie, and so far their testimony remains unchallenged.
The Morton County Police have no “skin in the Game” either ! this is a small community of only 27,000 . Sheriff Kyle Kirchmeier entire department only employs 34 personnel. None of these officers, or the units from surrounding counties who have volunteered to assist, have the sort of training or experience necessary for a well organized campaign with a large contingent of very violent, radical protestors.
In fact, Sheriff Kyle Kirchmeier shouldn’t be involved, and wouldn’t be if his appeals for aid from the correct agency, The US Marshal Service, had been heeded. President Obama has consistently refused to authorize the use of Marshals .
Sheriff Kyle Kirchmeier is sworn to keep the peace. If he is called to a site being attacked, he and his deputies must respond. If the demonstrators simply demonstrated peacefully, Sheriff Kyle Kirchmeier would equally defend their right to do so against any aggressors.
Sheriff Kyle Kirchmeier has be left in a completely no-win situation. the size and aggressive behavior by the protestors, (most of whom are peaceful) has simply overwhelmed his poorly trained and ill-equipped force, and the loose confederation of supporting agencies.
Not all the protestors are violent or radical, but in such a large crowd there is always present troublesome elements including skilled agitators and agent-provocateurs with links to the media and very experienced in social media manipulation.
Sheriff Kyle Kirchmeier is a small town law enforcement officer. He (and the demonstrators) are up against some very determined, highly experienced skilled radicals. These people appear at every demonstration, their agenda has little to do with the actual cause, but pursuing an agenda of their own devising.
Sheriff Kyle Kirchmeier has been abandoned by the Obama administration, and the North Dakota’s Lieutenant-Governor whose advise to the beleaguered Sheriff was to stand his deputies down and not respond to any calls involving breaches of the law by protestors. (Including assault, arson, theft etc).
The whole affair’s like something out of an old western movie!
The Federal Marshal Service has the experience, training and equipment for exactly this situation. Reservations, Highways, pipeline are Federal jurisdiction. Sheriff Kyle Kirchmeier’s request for Federal intervention by the highly trained and disciplined Federal Agency should have been immediately granted.
It typical of the weak, ineffectual, Obama administration, that has left a legacy of confused, muddled policy decisions world wide.
I don’t quite get your argument that the pipeline is environmentally wrong, but if more money was paid to the local Native Americans, that would make it OK ?
Unlike you and Craig, I can see both sides of this conflict, and as in all conflicts, I most sympathize with the innocent non participant who become collateral damage.
As I said elsewhere, no one seems to have any regard for the fact that when all this is over, when all the passion is spent, the politicians, media and demonstrators have gone back home, and attention is focused on the next sensation, the folk of Morton County will be left to clean up the wreckage of their environment, and try to repair the bitter divisions in their community.
Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won’t be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after….
One tin soldier rides away.
-Dennis Lambert & Brian Potter
@ Frank Brother I have No links I regret I dont have the time to go research and cut and paste etc.
I get my news from some broadcasts from two different programs and once in a while the CNN or MSNBC show a very short clip on their weak news broadcasts. A few nites ago I stumbled onto a BBC broadcast that showed for 15 minutes that indeed it is a increasingly violent disagreement. The general message was that the authorities and their contractor agents have abused the protesters.
Marco you accuse me of much ….I grow tired of your general Broad Paint Brush techniques but dont feel singled out as you do that .
It is your M O !
As I said the area is full of descendants of racists and they enjoy brutalizing the Native people.
The local police are not the ones that should be policing this I agree with you. The Federal Government should be more active and clear up the violence and let the Administrative legal process go forward. Per news reports that may happen not sure.
I dont spend much time on it but in todays newspaper they quote the Chief of the Sioux Nation and he is behind the protesters.
Or Water Protectors as they call them selves. So the Chief approves the leader.
So Marco go take up all your charges against him and his Tribal Council not me. Your defense of the red neck local Sheriff and his stooges is not worth discussing.
There are monetary reasons the pipeline was being built along the route that it is. The Federal Govnt may or may not be in on the this I don’t know.
A Northern route East Across N Dakota could have followed existing 2 pipelines that go to Chicago area. They could have gone South East of the water shed s and reservations and then East thru Iowa. Still crossing some rivers but less contentiousness Perhaps?
Marco you are the one who does not see both sides of this You take a stand with Morton Cty as if they have been wounded. I don’t hear of all these injuries , why are they not in the newspapers? As weak as our news media is now surely they would tell us if the so called good citizen locals were being harmed in the numbers you state!
Your reference to good songs and their words is nice . But fails the point.
where is the ND governor he has failed in leadership to all including Morton Cty. Maybe they are ashamed of what ever back room deal re routed the pipeline away from more Anglo lands! ? perhaps that is the secret!
For one last time I repeat for you – I dont think you are Dense person but you as usual dont read what we write.
The reason that this oil perhaps should stay in the ground is that the only way Global Warming can be Turned back and reversed is to start keeping some of this carbon in the ground. Stop burning it .
Given the environemtnal and social inequities of this peipeline maybe this is a good place to start. I woul dsay the same about th eTar Sands leave it in the ground.
Many in Canada are beginning to see beyond short term profit and realize what is at Stake! for the Globe.
Some of us are Global citizens and it trumps our capitalistic habits.
Is that too hared for you to digest and comprehend you claim to want a greener planet??
Keep on trashing me I wear it as a Badge of Honor ! lets see how the courts turn out and when the Feds step up and do their job. Perhaps they w rule in favor for the Pipeline! Perhaps?
We should be focusing on the impacts on the environment for this and similar projects. That is the spirit of 2 green Energy , not trying to litigate in the Sorbid affairs of small town ND and all its cultural / racist baggage.
Marco stop denial of american cultural and racial genocide – its well documented.
take care Frank
Marco your defense of the locals is your right but your denial of environmental impacts makes me question your commitment to a Greener Future !
Silent,
I agree with much of what you have written. However, I see the way to keep oil in the ground as being to reduce the demand for oil which can be done only gradually. Trying to keep oil in the ground by stopping exploration, drilling, or shipping, will only cause it to be extracted from other areas.
In the current case, it is not only about keeping oil in the ground; there are other considerations. There is the risk of contaminating water in many areas because of where the pipeline will be routed. There is also the matter of disrespecting the rights of the Native Americans. It seems to be that those other considerations should be sufficient to route the pipeline differently.
@ Frank yes we need to consume less and lower demand to reduce pollution.
thanks for your support. Listen to Thom Hartman radio show or Free Speech TV they do most of the reporting on real issues with out the Corporate Filters that hide all the Crimes against the people that are being plotted daily. MIP Make it Plain by Mark Thompson from NY is a good one he invites on the scene speakers two times a week.
But step back from this pipeline issue for a few feet and clear your line of view.
1. Until gas prices really got lowered we were cutting back and more Ev s sold and more fuel efficient cars and trucks too.
2. Now gas prices have gone low and people are slipping back into their wasteful ways. buying trucks in volume etc. EV sales slowing.
So we know the Major Oil co want to export oil and gas to make more money . Not for us. There is a glut of oil on market now. Off shore drilling rigs laid up in Caribbean Island Ports. Off shore oil is not cost effective. No protesters just Economics ! the Laws of Diminishing returns. ( market facts Marco not personal opinions )
So more oil on the market keeps prices low so it keeps consumption going up again.
The only way to reach the Goals of Green and Sustainability is too drive up the prices for fossil fuel. we can do this with Carbon taxes, fees etc. But hard to do given the current political landscape in the US.
So reduce the supply of oil by blocking all these pipelines. etc. Not just here but in Canada. So that is one of the drivers behind these protests. they are trying to limit the expansion of the Carbon Industry put caps on their growth.
As I said Texas has oil, they just found close to 25 Billion more barrels plus some more gas.
That is the way to drive up the prices and drive the Oil majors into other regions. Where the prices are already high like the oceans . That is the way to Win the WAR and it is a WAR of Attrition against them.
As the Native American speakers said they could change their business models and go green and make money a new cleaner way but they don’t as the current political system protects their model.
Young people have figured this out for themselves it is now their Truth. !
I propose a Winning Strategy not some Coffee latte namby pamby spineless liberal mushy self limiting watered down proclamations.
that are easily thwarted by the entrenched interests.
Or Morons like the trumper.
Many other people have figured it out Keep it in the ground drive up the prices and society will switch fuels – No Marco the sky will not Fall . The Stars will be brighter and the Air cleaner too.
The transition away from Carbon must get serious or All bets are Off for the Future ! Amen.
Peace Frank – I was going to stop commenting on this . but your thoughts are good and deserve a reply.