This Surreal Point in U.S. History
Before I introduce this video, let me state the obvious: IMO, we’re living a national nightmare with Trump in the White House, and it grows more intense with each passing day. Now, if it were just I who had that viewpoint, a random progressive dude with a website and a consulting practice in clean energy, along with the left-of-center segment of the media, I would fully expect readers to take my words with a grain of salt (or stop reading them altogether).
Importantly, however, there is a huge percentage of our population, more every day, that is tracking with all this and feel the same way–and get this: it’s not all liberals; it’s reaching increasingly deep into the ranks of conservatives. I hope you’ll enjoy this clip from none other than Fox News. Wow.
Fox news is a propaganda wing of the Republican party. One of two things is happening here. Either this is an isolated instance (like Glen Beck’s infamous demise) of going off message, or this is signaling a shift in support for the president. I think you have to look at some of the other broadcasts coming from the same source to tell what is happening.
There are many conservatives who only watch Fox and watch it constantly. This broadcast may be preparing Trump supporters that it is OK to condem Trump for lying. It is certainly easier to show him the door for lying than for treason. Treason would be a stain too hard to remove for the Republicans. If removal is the plan this is the sort of first move I would expect.
Breath,
Perhaps you can show me where in the constitution “talking to Russians” constitutes Treason ?
Nor does the Constitution state a President must not express an opinion, no matter how inaccurate or plain barmy.
It’s Trump’s democratic right to hold and voice opinions no matter how wrong or inaccurate. That’s not “lying”, it’s just a matter of opinion. Maybe in the President’s estimation he believes his claims.
His retort that there’s no evidence the Russians “hacked ” the election, is accurate since the term “Hacked and Election” is so vague and imprecise as to be nonsensical.
Again, the President acted swiftly and properly in removing Gen Flynn for misleading the VP.
The idea Congress is planning to remove President Trump on such trivial grounds is far fetched and would never occur.
Marco, I don’t understand why you are struggling with the details as you usually seem to be well versed. Trump was informed by the then assistant atty general of the compromised Gen Flynn. It was almost 3 weeks later that he was fired. He was not “immediately removed” as you suggest. He was only “immediately removed” when he was caught knowing and doing nothing.
Marco, again I thought you had a reasonably informed legal mind. I assumed that you knew only one jurisdiction in the US had any connection with the Napoleonic Code. In every other jurisdiction what is the “Law” is a combination of the Constitution, Statutes, regulations, and precedent.
Treason is defined in US Statutes:
18 U.S. Code § 2381 – Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 807; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(2)(J), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)
As a more lay definition we can use: “The betrayal of one’s own country by waging war against it or by consciously or purposely acting to aid its enemies.” http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Treason
When one president puts sanctions in place and a private individual covertly has conversations that aim to thwart the effect of those policies they are acting to “aid the enemy.” In this case with information. By definition that is treason. This is true regardless of whether Trump thinks it is perfectly fine or he “would have directed him to have those conversations.” Whether it is provable or would be prosecuted is another matter, but the allegation is valid.
Certainly the president can have opinions, but freedom of opinion is not carte blanche. If someone stood up in a crowded theater and yelled fire and people were crushed in the ensuing panic having “an opinion” is not a defense. Similarly, I can tell you something is “fake news” and it is my opinion. But the president held himself to a higher standard when he made it very clear that he is acting from a position of authority and so when he calls something “fake news” that is demonstrably accurate, he is held to a higher standard than I would be with my limited knowledge.
We call it “lying” but it is intentionally misleading the constituents. It is failing in a public trust. And it suggests either incapacity or nefarious motivation. Either of which would be grounds to seek removal from office. This is the setting in which we might judge this fox news broadcast. It is a prelude.
I previously discussed a definition of “Hacking the election” in response to your asking for a definition of “hacking.” I would refer you to that post. Perhaps you missed it.
Also as I previously said Clinton was impeached by the house for “lying to a special prosecutor.” But sometimes what is in the indictment does not adequately define the view of the prosecutor or the crime. It is only what can be proven. The Law can be quite flexible in this way.
Breath,
I am aware of “18 U.S. Code § 2381 – Treason”, but so far as I am aware, the US has not declared war on Russia, nor is Russia an enemy.
In fact more than 1600 American interests, cultural, commercial, and governmental are in constant discussions with Russia and Russians. Are they all guilty ?
General Flynn is an intelligence analyst and advisor, I would imagine part of his job requirement would be to talk to his Russian counterparts.
Sanctions are an odd grey area falling into a strange area between political policy and government policy. It would be an offence to conspire to defeat or circumvent sanctions, but not necessarily discuss or research the effect or even oppose the imposition of sanctions.
I don’t know, but I would imagine that in all the thing occurring around the new President, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume the impact of Gen Flynn’s indiscretions simply didn’t take a high priority in the Presidents attention.
Three weeks isn’t a long time for a new and very inexperienced President assuming office for the first time.
Your definition of what constitutes lying, is more political than legal. US law contains the ancient principle of mens rea, or “knowing intent”.
To use your own analogy, if the individual who cried “fire’ in a crowded theatre was of the belief that a fire was actually occurring, when it was only a stage effect or a fault in the air-conditioning system, he could not be held responsible.
Trump is an unusual President in that he styles himself as an “everyman” admittedly one with a lot of money, but a bit like electing that guy with the know-it-all big mouth in the bar, who nevertheless is a successful local businessman, hard working family man, local benefactor, warm, generous, amusing,in many ways a fun guy as a drinking companion.
There are millions of such people, often elected to local positions of government, mayors councilmen, etc
That’s not to excuse Trumps behaviour,but I think it’s an explanation. This is what happens when people without any political experience are elected.
Trump was always a new phenomenon, he simply can’t be judged by normal standards.
Perhaps that’s what most critics are really afraid. Maybe Trump is more representative of the real America. An America very different than the image portrayed by the political elite.
The persecution of Clinton was a terrible abuse of power. The idea of even appointing a special prosecutor was an abuse of power, while the vindictiveness and hypocrisy surrounding the matter highlighted the depravity of the persecutors far more than any lapse in morality by President Clinton.
It’s the media and critics forgot all this silly excitement, instead concentrated on examining Trumps economic policies (or lack thereof). This is should be the real area of concern for the American people.
Your points may be somewhat moot as apparently General Flynn appeared before the FBI and testified there. If he is caught lying under oath then that is after all what tripped up Clinton.
Curiously Trump during his recent press conference said he would have directed him to have the conversation “If he had known.” Others have speculated that Flynn would not have taken it upon himself to initiate this conversation.
With respect to the impact this will have on the presidency there are some good points made in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qtKLwwfgEs The question comes at 5:55 into the clip.
A bit of advice that is worth taking is to “not get ahead of the facts.” Too much speculation may not be helpful and I have engaged in perhaps too much of this. It is all going to unfold regardless of what is discussed here.
Breath,
” “not get ahead of the facts.” Too much speculation may not be helpful ”
Very true, and astute of you to point out. It’s good advice for all of us to remember.
Craig,
Only a few months ago FOX News was the ‘enemy’ of all progressives !
It’s the same old FOX, but suddenly because it attacks someone you don’t like, they become paragons of virtue.
FOX news is no more truthful or reliable than it has ever been. So, in the interests of fairness, less look at what FOX is asserting.
FOX claim it an “indisputable Truth ” the Russian government “hacked” the US election. Now before you start gloating, could you explain how an election can be “Hacked” ?
Naturally, the Russian government denies any “hacking” activity, and since the source of the claims emanates from the CIA, I amazed that any “progressive Liberal” would accept such unverified allegations from such a despised organization.
Oh, yeah I was forgetting you hate Trump even more than the CIA!
Sadly, it seems that both the media and the President are locked into a weird competition of passing off opinion as fact. It’s an unedifying experience.
@ Craaaaaaaaaaaaig
Brother I feel and understand your concerns well justified – we are charting into some Swirling SEAS and the Cross winds are challenging. enjoy some good wine.
Breath and Marco I want to compliment both of you as I have been following your other conversation or discussion and you both are making some interesting points about all this confusion, conflicting statements by the Trump Administration and when did
the Russians really interfere with the election and when did Gen Flynn go bad or how far bad did he go ? which FBI agents are leaking but Trumper says it is just the media ! and on and on…. and why did Trumper wait 3 weeks to fire him.
But then trumpet says he did not fire him, Flynn is a good man and Trumper says no problems I have another General all picked out.
This is Gen Harwood and he turned the job down this Morning. So Craigs concerns are with good merit. We have ongoing rounds of Chaos going on at all levels.
The CIA or other agency says that Gen flynnn lied to the FBI during questioning. ….and some sort of investigation is going to go forward.
Then the Senate leader says no sense of urgency for Investigation as they want to protect the Trumper as he is their useful foil – their pawn tool to get their rough budget cuts done under Trumpers Aura ! so the Public can be further deceived again.
Marco I can see where Breath is going with the last post as you appear to be sorta defending or down playing the Trumper s mistakes and his ongoing CIRCUS like behavior.
Marco I must give you credit – you said months ago and we bantered it back and forth you were right too. You said that who ever wins the Presidency is going to drink from several TOXIC Chalices …..and we agreed…..I say that trumpet is creating his own TOXIC CHALICES IN ADDITION TO THE ONES THAT ARE ALREADY THERE.
SO now he is of to SC and Florida in campaign mode trying to rally his grass roots blind followers some more do some working the crowd for the tv cameras. Master Show man a real Circus Master all part of his CON game.
BTW the Trumper complained about Obama vacations, well the Trumper is on his 3rd vacation this weekend at his plush palace in Florida and we have to pay for this excess. I know he said he was going to do some swamp draining and Florida is full of swamps; but the Swamp he talked about is in Washington. so what gives. he has spent $10 million of our money playing and setting up his sons to make more money what A CON game.
Last but not least the story flying around right now is that the FEDs are going to mobilize a large number of National Guards units to help ICE in a rapid implementation of the new Immigration orders that the 31 year old whiz kid from California is writing up with some other Staffers.
So that is the new big play and maybe that is Deflection from Russia ???
Lots of balls in the Air and I guess those Chalices are completely Toxic! Like you said Marco.
I think there is something dark and deep going on that will surface and Blows Up things in a not so Grand manner….we just have to wait and see… the GOP leaders only want Selective Investigation so they can provide some cover for their Shill or Foil the trumpet . He has not used up all his usefulness yet but that day will come and they will turn on him as I see it. I may be wrong. its just the beginning.
Its almost like Macbeth with all the possible Plots and sub Plots and devious characters.
Thanks for your other good discussion and now this one . This Trumpet Circus is taxing and gotta go.
Take care keep the Drawbridges Up and Locked!
Keep drinking Wine and avoiding Swamps.