Peak Oil: A Theory Relegated to History
Of all the three +/- million words I’ve written since I started 2GreenEnergy, I don’t think I’ve ever gotten anything more glaringly wrong than peak oil. The first chapter of my first book, in fact, was an interview with the late Matt Simmons, perhaps the best-known proponent of the peak oil theory in its 50-year history. Here’s an excerpt:
Matthew Simmons served as energy adviser to U.S. President George W. Bush. His book Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy is a thoughtful examination of oil reserve decline rates – a phenomenon that points to the idea of “Peak Oil” – the concept that the world’s capacity to find petroleum is declining.
Craig Shields: I read your book – Twilight in the Desert. It certainly explains your position very well, or at least the position that you had at that point. Excellent stuff.
Matt Simmons: Thanks very much.
CS: Peak oil, in my estimation, is one of probably four or five good reasons to head in this direction – and it’s a heck of a good one.
MS: Oh, it’s the only one that basically forces you to do it.
CS: Well, from the position of someone who might not know an awful lot about peak oil, or may even be skeptical of the position, how would you articulate it?
MS: The first thing is to make people understand what you mean by “peak oil.” Unfortunately, most of the critics of peak oil think it means we’ve run out of oil, and it doesn’t mean anything like that. It means we’ve peaked. And we’re never really going to run out of oil. We’ll always have some oil. We might not have any we want to use, but we’ll always have oil. But when the flow rate starts to decline, you have to use less.
I’m going to stick on the supply side for a minute. What’s unfortunate is how little data we have of high quality that really pins down how real this issue is. With the exception of a handful of key oil-producing countries who have created genuine petroleum transparency field by field, and that includes all the participants in the North Sea, and Mexico, we have no data on the flow-rate from the rest of the world’s oilfields. Now, you can really dig around, which is what I spent a decade doing, and getting lots of data on the flow-rates per field, or you could wait until the producing countries’ flow-rates have been in decline for three or four years before you say “well obviously that country has peaked in its oil supply.”
CS: Right. But, what is the imperative of these people to tell you anything about it, and least of all, the truth?
MS: Well, it’s in everyone’s best interests to be honest about this because the people it hurts the worst are the producing countries. In fact, ironically, I had a reporter in Dubai from Bloomberg email me this morning to get some comments on an article she’s doing on the 50th anniversary of OPEC. And her questions were, “Do you think OPEC will be viable 50 years from now?” And “What should they be doing to strengthen their organization?” and “what changes do you think they should make?” I basically said that I think within 20 years most of the OPEC producers will not be able to export oil anymore, because their internal use is rising fast and their internal supply flow is shrinking.
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The newly discovered Wolfcamp Shale Formation in West Texas holds 20 billion barrels of oil, 16 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, and 16 Tcf of associated natural gas – “the largest assessment of continuous oil” according to the USGS, nearly three times more petroleum than the agency found in North Dakota’s Bakken shale in 2013.
At this point, it’s time for all of us to admit that there is enough coal, oil, and gas in the Earth’s crust to last humankind indefinitely. Or perhaps it’s more accurate to say this: there is more than a sufficient amount of coal, oil, and gas in the Earth’s crust, such that, if we choose to burn it, it will ruin this planet several times over.
1. Yes we all know that there is an indefinate (effectively) amount of oil and coal available to use for global power generation and combustion, there is nothing new in that fact.
2. We also know that although available for use we wont in fact be using it indefinately for power generation because together they are the major contributors to greenhouse gas emissions, and once again there is nothing new in that fact.
3. We also know that we need to replace current coal and oil energy generation in all of its forms as soon as we can to permanently put a halt to global greenhouse gas emissions to insignificant levels, and yet again there is nothing new in that fact.
4. The one point we dont yet know in this story line, is what will be the format of the new and enduring energy generation technology that will be forthcoming to solve this critical problem?
5. But we will all know in due course though, through normal global commercial market forces operating in this sector.
6. It is of course paragraph 4 that we should all be most interested in.
Lawrence Coomber
It’s not that the peak oil theory is wrong. Rather, the time table is much longer than originally thought. Instead of being 20 years or so, it may be 200 years or so. Obviously that has significant implications.
Craig,
Well said ! Peak oil is a great example of the fallibility of predictions based on assumptions, masquerading as immutable truths.
I suppose, as Frank points out, eventually every resource, ( the planet itself)is finite.
The discrediting of “Peak oil ” is a mixed blessing. On the one hand, stabilizing the economy and creating economic growth, but on the other, lessening the sense of urgency to develop and implement new ‘green’ clean technologies.
IMO, all we can do, is press ahead with introducing cleaner technologies on the basis that they are not only cleaner than oil, but superior economically and more convenient.
I believe in the long run forcing technologies to compete without enduring artificial barriers will strengthen the introduction of Clean tech, not weaken it’s adoption.
At Craig to dismiss the concept of Peak Oil as a concept that has been proven wrong and is no longer relevant is a Simplistic position.
Glad you started another discussion related to this as this simplistic position can be extensively challenged with a avalanche of competing information and variables.
The market both supply and demand is much more complex. Technical change and Price elasticity and many things like that.
The bigger question is How much of the Technically Proven reserves can be converted into Economically Recoverable reserves – there is a huge difference.
It is nice on one hand to have more stable prices and lower ones than were predicted a few years back.
But yesterday OPEC agreed to reduce production so they can raise prices.
But already the OPEC folks are going to cut back on production so prices will go back up.
Domestic producers in US breathing sigh of relief perhaps the bankruptcies will slow down or go away as some over extended energy firms weather out the low price storm.
The time table for the supply getting real tight may have been pushed back or out into the future as Frank says.
Marco adds that this may delay greener technologies or make the Bar go higher to gain market traction. True.
Peak oil is also about demand – the high fuel standards in the US will reduce demand and volume. if Trumpster tries to undermine the CAFE standards put in by Obama he may run into a 3 year court battle with the Federal government. Wisely Obama has the head of the EPA recognizing the CAFE Stds as part of the regulatory scheme to get cleaner air.
So its part of Clean Air policy rules now.
So for once the Dems may have headed off the Gomers at the Pass as they say. This will delay changes and once folks save money on gas with better MPG they like it. They VOTE also.
Of course a Facist leaning President or Reality TV star might impose Martial Law to do dumb things.
California Gov has stated he will not Back down on their air emission rules that impact vehicle sales in the state. So this will get more EV sold so that reduces demand.
These are the sorts of variables tht are in play now
That makes Peak Oil a concept that is More about a UNSTABLE MARKET going forward.
Where that leads to is just More Uncertaintity.
3 months ago the domestic oil co were preparing to lobby the gomer majority to impose price supports for domestic oil production to make it financially viable to keep producing.
That is part of the Unstable Peak price of Oil variable!
Now OPEC has come to the rescue of the domestics.
Politics it is said makes strange bed fellows – well the same can be said about Profits. The pursuit of Profits makes even stranger alliances ! LOL !!!
PS TO MARCO POLO Mate re the ongoing and increasing violence in ND over the Pipeline. Obama and others need to get into gear soon.
Several groups of US Army Veterans in California , Wash st and a couple of other States are forming Mobile Brigades and they plan to march to Dakotas Armed to join the Native Americans in their struggle.
The armed part is interesting and illustrates that the Greed and Excesses of the Uber Oligarchs in their endless pursuit of excessive profit and disregard for the Environemntal consequences of the short term business models has reached a TIPPING POINT CLASH and FLASH divide among the common Man. Our Army Vets choosing sides . They are choosing to Side with the abused Native Americans. They are taking Firearms with them to join. How things have changed.
Reporters report they are mis treated by angry red neck whites in Bismarck ND when they deplane to go out to the protest site. People are getting more divided.
Craig this is another Big variable in peak Oil if this pipeline gets stopped and the Baaken Resource is not fully exploited and same happens in Alberta Canada then that supply peak comes back into sight!
Trumper is sending some of his selected staff to start lobbying Canada to push ahead with Tar Sands and Keystone but the new Canadian government both the Central and Alberta leaders are against the Tar Sands!
What will Trumper do ???
Interesting times we live in interesting.
Silent,
I think you should calm down ! There will be no violent armed insurrections. Those advocating anything of that sort, are simply violent criminals and would be immediately dealt with accordingly.
Native Americans have access to the courts, as does the pipeline company. The Courts are the proper place to decide disputes.
Without the rule of law, there is no Justice and no legal authority . All members of society have a right to peaceful protest and free assembly, so long as that does not impeach or impose on the rights of others.
Armed vigilantes, even if former service personnel, are simply criminals and completely counter-productive. As has occurred in the past, such renegades would be easily suppressed by legal armed authority loyal to their oath of office.
Nor can Donald trump declare Martial Law on a whim ! Why would he need to do so ? As the President he can lawfully reverse any ‘Executive Order’ made by a previous President.
He can simply remove the the head of the EPA (who will soon retire) replacing the officeholder with a candidate of his choosing.
If the President wishes to go further he can deny funding, remove or transfer personnel or a wide range of options to lessen the effectiveness of policies not to his liking.
None of these actions are matters than can be legally agitated in Court.
His final resort is to go to Congress and initiate legislation to achieve his goal. Once (and if) legislation is passed, only new legislation can remove it’s effect.
The only limit on legislative power is the Constitution.
States have limited Aurthority. The Constitution reserves some authority for the Federal Government, and States can’t lawfully defy Federal legislation. (pointless, since no Court would uphold enforcement).
I’m afraid your exciting scenario of Armed conflict and righteous revolution belongs in a Hollywood script or a Steven Seagal movie.
OPEC has lost much of it’s dominance due to advanced technology now deployed by non-OPEC oil producing nations. Natural Gas has become a far more sought after commodity, and as in all booms Oil prices have dropped with over supply.
I realize that for some enthusiastic would be “eco- Warriors”, the prospect of irrelevance and no exciting ” revolution”, is a disappointment, but it just won’t occur.
What will occur is a long, arduous “evolutionary’ process marked by hard work and patience to slowly transition to a low carbon energy future.
Those truly interested in the Environment, should join the rest of us in forgetting all the grandstanding politics, and useless “symbolic gestures”. Instead start working on humbler, by truly effective, practical environmental programs that can be supported by all citizens.
Not as exciting maybe, but then it depends on your priorities.
Marcopolo,
The history of civil rights in the U.S. indicates that in some situations, depending on the law is useless. Blacks tried that for many decades before demonstrations and civil unrest finally produced results.
Frank,
You are correct, however what distinguished the civil rights movement led by such leaders as Martin Luther King etc, was it obeyed the law, was non-violent and respected the rights of others.
The black civil rights movement was careful to make onlookers even their enemies, ashamed of themselves and the level of bigotry and violence leveled at the peaceful demonstrators.
The appalling injustice, and total lack of injury or loss by their opponent of civil right, bankrupted the separatist cause and exposed Jim Crow laws as an anathema to the image the US thought of itself.
The was the key point. The violence was all one way.
Even ardent racists felt ashamed at the televised treatment being displayed by obvious thugs and bullies. TV allowed the nation to demand Federal intervention, and the civil rights movement found a champion in LBJ.
But the key to success was Martin Luther’s followers adherence to non-violent protest and lawful demands. There was no other way. Voting and court relief, was blocked or denied
By this method he made his enemies feel ashamed, and changed their hearts.
What is happening in Morton County, is very different ! The demonstrations have disintegrated into a confused melee, with different groups of demonstrators following different agenda’s.
Many of the demonstrators have behaved very badly (no one seems to want to discuss the victims of the demonstrators).
In this instance, the demonstrators have access to the courts, the Local Sheriff is only upholding the law. There would be no conflict, no burnt out vehicles, no destruction of private property or other acts of criminal theft, vandalism, assault etc, if Martin Luther was conducting the protest.
The Sheriff’s task would be to protect the rights of the demonstrators to peaceful assembly, a task he would be glad to perform.
More tellingly, if the present incumbent in the White House had the courage of his ’60’s predecessor, it wouldn’t be the Sheriffs problem.
Marcopolo,
The black civil rights movement and its most prominent leader, the Rev. Martin Luther King, did NOT obey the law! One of their tactics was sit ins at restaurants which would not serve blacks. It was illegal to continue to sit in when directed to leave yet they did so. They also did other things which violated Jim Crow laws. However, they were non-violent.
I do not excuse some of the tactics in which the anti-pipeline protesters engage. Nor do I approve of some of the tactics of those opposing the demonstrators. And, I do not doubt that different groups of demonstrators are following different agenda because of inability to agree on one agendum.
Regarding the courts, I don’t know all the details. It may be that the courts are so slow that by the time they finally acted their decisions may be moot.
From experience I have learned that getting accurate information on such matters is impossible. Sources do not agree and it is likely that all are inaccurate.
Frank,
I hate to correct an American on American history, but Martin Luther King’s follower were not in breach of the Law.
The protests at bus depots were legal since the Federal regulations sanctioned their actions, this was decided in 1955. From 1955 U.S. interstate bus (including Greyhound ), could not be segregated by race. (Keys v. Carolina Coach Co.)
This was followed by the U.S. Supreme Court decision of Boynton v. Virginia (1960 ) which found that African American’s had been wrongly convicted of trespassing in a “whites only” terminal areas. That decision also ruled that any action by to law enforcement designed to prevent a citizen excising a legal entitlement or Constitutional right, is unlawful.
This decision also protected the freedom marches, as being Constitutionally protected.
Martin Luther King stayed within both the Constitution and the Law. legislatures or local authorities can’t pass or enforce laws against Federal Statutes or the Constitution.
From 1964 the US Civil Rights Act, outlawed discrimination in hotels, restaurants, and other public accommodations, state and local government buildings, overwhelming and virtually abolishing Jim Crow.
Marcopolo,
It was not only interstate bus companies which had lunch counters. Companies which were not engaged in interstate commerce also had lunch counters. Moreover, it would be unreasonable to assume that that all of King’s followers adhered to King’s admonition not to break laws.
I realize that in some respects, Australia is more advanced than the U.S. Australian hospitals even have theaters whereas patients in U.S. hospitals have to be satisfied with being entertained by television. But where civil rights are concerned, it is unclear that Oz has done any better than the U.S. Both countries have fallen far short of the demands of social justice.
Frank,
Even if a few civil rights demonstrators didn’t pay heed to the teachings of Martin Luther King, surely the significance is so many did, that the highly disciplined, non-violent, lawful nature of his protests, so impressed the nation and most importantly his opponents, that he achieved his objectives supported by the legal process.
His policies raised up respect, understanding and reconciliation. The legacy was a better future for all.
The President Johnson responded with great courage and determination to ensure the nation moved forward to enshrine into law Martin Luther King’s “dream” .
The point is, Pres.Obama has the Authority, Power and legacy of LBJ to end the dispute in Morton County, that he has done so, is either cynically opportunistic, or weakly irresponsible.
Instead, he’s left it to a small town Sheriff to deal with a federal problem.
I like the idea of Australian hospitals being equipped with “theatres” instead of TV ! 🙂
(Theatres are a English term for operating rooms. In the old teaching hospitals, these were actually lecture theatres and sold admission).
Marcopolo,
There were many civil rights activists who felt that King’s peaceful protest methods were misguided. I myself think that BOTH the peaceful protest methods AND more active methods were necessary and that if either one of them had not been used, there would have been less progress. Sometimes it is more effective to use multiple methods instead of only one method; that applies to civil rights, science, and other pursuits as well. And, because multiple methods were used, it is incorrect to assume that it was only King’s peaceful civil protest methods which produced results.
There has been a long history of oppression of Native Americans. Their land was stolen from them and they were given less desirable land in exchange. And when that less desirable land was found to contain valuable minerals, it was taken away from them. In fact, at one time, Native Americans were even denied citizenship. I find it appalling that although most of the oppressors considered themselves to be Christians, they did not even bother to try to obey one of the most basic laws of Christianity, i.e., to love one’s neighbors as oneself, or even to follow the command, “Thou shalt not steal”.
With your attitude towards the law being what it is, I suppose that you would have obeyed the Dread Scott decision and returned run away slaves to their owners as the decision required. When inter racial marriage was illegal, probably you would have condemned those who entered into inter racial marriages because they were in violation of the law.
In general, I do think that we should obey the law. However, there are times when obedience to the law is contrary to social justice.
I do not claim to have inside information about the pipeline demonstrations. For one thing, I do not trust the media. Often it is wrong because of careless reporting with no bias intended. Other times, it is biased. But I do think that those of us Americans who have actively studied American history, and not merely absorbed watered down high school history teaching, have a better understanding of U.S. civil rights history than do people from other countries.
Frank,
Dread Scott was a bad decision, but it did point out a deficiency in the US constitution which led to the 14th amendment.
Laws regarding inter-racial marriage in the US, were never Constitutional after 1866.
Historically, access to the Courts and Constitution were available and rulings held less weight than today.
The history of US treatment of native Americans isn’t great, but the treatment of Native Americans with each other wasn’t always harmonious either. It’s also true that the real cause of the Revolutionary war, was the prevention of expansion into Indian territory.
(Can I have our 650 acres in NY back?:)
Just as the Sioux and other tribes, having adopted the European horse as a weapon were able to take over the land and hunting grounds of the more peaceful plains tribes (often by genocide and enslavement) so the Europeans displaced the Native Americans.
Today’s American’s must learn to compromise with each other.
The violence and destruction of the Civil war didn’t change the heart and minds of Southerners, just institutionalized bigotry.
The strength of Martin Luther King’s approach lay in his winning the hearts and respect of his opponents. He not only encouraged his followers to be better people, but allowed opponents to become better people.
The issue of the pipeline and sensitivity to Native American issues should be conducted in a calm, rational atmosphere, with mutual respect. That’s the purpose of courts and mediation.
The concerns expressed by the local Native Americans, have long since been forgotten in a frenzy of conflicting agenda’s. Very few of the original concerns are any longer discussed. The issue has become politicized and a battleground for those who refuse to accept the result of the General Election.
None of this violence would have occurred if President Obama had acceded to the request by local law enforcement and quickly brought the matter under federal control.
Originally,(before all the politics), the Native American stakeholders agenda was fairly modest and focused on the a small number of localized concerns.
These matters could have been addressed. The Native Americas have always emphasized they are not opposed to the pipeline as such, just certain aspects of construction.
By now it’s turned into an anti-pipeline campaign, which has nothing to do with the concerns of Native Americans, but everything about politics.
Mate Marco I just report what is the news….I dont share Blind enthusiasm for Insurrections though it might not be all bad either.
Just Face the facts that many American Servicemen are on the Native american side and East Coast Reporters being harassed by white red necks in Bismark proper is none of my doing.
Where it goes I have no idea. I said earlier that the Governor ND should have done more to stop this long ago.
But it appears that the Governor was on the Pipeline side so he chose to sub contract the action out to third party contractors etc. Some of them are being rough w protesters.
Some of the protesters are being rough with the so called security
The gas mileage rules if Trumper wants to change to sell more oil as he loves it , he can get it changed Marco. But it will take 3 years by law to over rule in place rules the EPA has put in place. Its the regulatory system and the administrative court system that moves real slow.
that is what I said.
We shall see how many former soldiers go North to Stand with the Natives who are now receiving more aid from other Environmental Groups.
The clash of black gold with human spirit ! Interesting .
I am calm I got Jap bashing material – As I said we Americans were always told l that we needed to look up to them they were the new masters etc. It got so old.
Their economy is not good and their debt level is real high and many other structural limitations including demographic limits all combine to weaken that Resource Deprived Nation.
I see no need to be politically correct. The Japs are stupid to do this coal retarded move.
@ Craig – Did you see the WSJ piece in Oct that said Exxon Oil is writing off 20 % of their so called reserves! in a filing with SEC.
The reason is that they have determined that they are not economically recoverable and when the price is high enough technical and economic substitution will replace oil IC engines with EV or Bio something or Mass transit etc.
They are saying they the future market contracting…
So save your chapter on Peak Oil , there will be many different forms of Peak Oil going forward. The Cultural trap is in thinking that it is a 1 size fits all type of problem. In reality, Its a Rubic Cube !!!!
Frank good historical points on Black struggles for civil Rights it took mass demonstrations, fires , honkies and others got hurt. To get change.
Lets see how far this goes and if the supporters and the armed former soldiers do actually go up there and Stand with the Native Americans.
There may be some Real news this Season.
take care Frank
Silent,
You seem to be excitedly cheering at the prospect of further violence and confrontation. There is nothing good that can arise from such a conflict.
There is no “victory’ for anyone. Not the nation, not the participants, and certainly not for the local community who when all others have departed, will have to live with the destruction and bitterness of this disaster for years to come.
Do you imagine the Native American sanctuary owners who have seen 30-40 years of hard work destroyed, will feel better off ?
The local Native Americans who enjoyed good relations in the local community will have to deal with the resentment and mistrust from those harmed by this conflict, many of whom are local members of the tribe.
Among the locals people there can be no winners, everyone will be a loser. The media, the demonstrators, and politicians of all hues, will move on leaving the local community poorer, more divided and quickly forgotten.
It’s not exciting news, it’s an American tragedy, that didn’t need to happen if the White house had exercised it’s Constitutional responsibility at an early stage.
@ Marco concerning ND
Look the pipeline owners seem to running over the Native Americans – the State is in cahoots with the pipeline folks that is why the Governor has not done his job of properly policing the situation.
They thought the Native Americans and their early band of followers would fold at the first signs of security guard tactics – that did not happen. No one is paying the thousands of people who have traveled to ND to participate. They are doing this at their own expense and now at risk of life and limb. The weather conditions are getting colder and perhaps that may calm things down.
Then the issue may be in the court room whee a Judge is going to decide things re the route of the pipeline. People will have to accept it. That is when the rule of Law may go into effect. Or counter suits begin.
Your sure seem to find no faults with the governor of ND who by constitution runs the states affairs. He had to declare an emergency and ask for Federal assistance. He has not done that.
This is not Obama’s doing. For 8 years the right wing attacks on him have been relentless and unfair . This is not his doing. He may want to do more action but runs the risk of running into the age old problem of selective states rights.
He has to be asked I believe to send in Federal Troops like in the Civil rights Days.
Marco you are right to pay Honor to Martin L King for his peaceful practices to protests. You are right about him and his circle. Very good.
But in other cities all over America many Black Leaders and the activists grew tired of peaceful protests adn they had some serious riots and burnings of property after clashes with Racist Police Depts. Many of those police Depts remain racist to this day so the Stains on America run deep.
so your fears of scars in ND may be true. But life is like a coin there are two sides to everything.
Both sides up there may be out of line both share responsibility to.
People the Native Americans – their Chief is leading them seem to feel wronged so they are into this protest for the long Haul. Maybe its time for the red necks of ND and most of them are Red Necks . I have personal experience and two of my close friends grew up there and have lived in Denver for over 35 years and just lease their land out. they hate going home and having to deal with the racist nativist attitudes that are persuasive in those parts.
These men are of N European roots and their family once had over 3,000 acres. They just lease most of it out as they want nothing to do with many within the state.
One is married to a Hispanic woman and she no longer goes with them when they go to visit at a Holiday with some relatives that remain.
Not all of ND is that way nor is everyone a racist but it definitely has strong nativism streaks in it and they mis treat the Native americans.
Yes it is sad that divisons will linger but the other side seems to just want to run over the Native american rights. It will be interesting to finally learn from the upcoming court hearings just what the Truth really is.
As for the army veterans , if they want to join up and make a Armed Stand with the Tribes and Protesters that is their God Given Right!
Maybe the Rednecks of ND and the Pipeline Co will reap what they have sowed ??? They are in Court in Texas now also.
Don’t put no guilt trips on me , You call the Governor and ask him to do his job or turn it over to the Feds.
It is his call to make.
Silent,
In your enthusiasm to defend President Obama and blame “racist” element for the problems of Morton County you seem to have invented a place that doesn’t exist.
1) There are no “red necks” ! The people of Morton County and the Morton County Sheriffs Department had previously enjoyed good relations with Native Americans. The Sheriffs Department has an excellent record on race relations (as does the Sheriff)and is an outstanding equal opportunity employer.
Not does the local native America “chief” (not elected) have the support of all local Native Americans.
This is not a “Civil rights issue”. The Local people have absolutely no say in the issue between the pipeline company, and the Protestors.
2) It’s certainly not the “God Given Right!” for army veterans to make “a Armed Stand” with the Tribes and Protesters ! It’s a criminal act and would be dealt with accordingly.
3) When you defend Obama, it’s obvious you don’t understand the legal position. The President has always had federal jurisdiction in this matter. From the outset, the Sheriff has requested The assistance of US Marshals. That’s the correct procedure.
It not necessary to seek the permission of the State Governor, the state has no jurisdiction over matters that fall with Federal jurisdiction. On the second day of protests, the regional office of the US Marshal Service reported to Washington that the Local law enforcement authority was under resourced and ill equipped to cope with the situation.
The US Marshal Service also determined the situation and jurisdiction required an appropriate federal response.
The request was forwarded to the President who has the authority to do two things to resolve the situation (Only the President has the authority).
1). Freeze the pipeline construction license pending a court hearing.
2) Authorize the use of US Marshals and other appropriate Federal agencies to assume peacekeeping and law enforcement duties.
Instead, the President did neither, he dithered and opportunistically tried to make political capital by making the issue more about a protest against the election of Trump, than carrying out his sworn duty.
He’s still failing to act.
Meanwhile the Sheriff and his under equipped deputies, (two of whom are Native Americans) are left to deal with a situation which is not of their making, because the man in the White House would rather play politics than perform his duty.
History will show that Obama’s obsession with being popular, diminishes repect for himself, and the office.
@ Frank thanks for taking a Stand for the Right side of History good documented comments
@ Marco
I have been listening to 3 hours live radio feed from the Front lines of Standing Rock ND. Here are some Truths from the frontlines
The cries of innocent people , old women being crudely and rudely strip searched by the Morton Cty goon squads. Forcing old people to walk in the cold with NO shoes back to their camp. Old people Native Americans being kept in dog cages and having water poured over them by the Goon squads.
Takes a real tough goon to do that .
Your comment of 2 Native Americans being members of the Cty police is irrelevant. Token appointments are a time honored practice of the Oppressor Class!
Listening to the Lady congresswoman from Hawaii who served in the Army as medical officer . She is on site and will report back to Congress. She is adamant in supporting the rights of the Native Americans.
As for Obama she dodged the tough questions on him. Some other people said Obama was providing cover for Hillary as she is more pro fracking and he was trying to keep the ND situation out of the campaign and avoid giving help to the trumper.
That is what 3 people said
So perhaps he has played politics as you claim. Now many activists are asking him to take action and shut down the pipeline work till after the court rules on the legality of the US Corp of engineers. According to the congress woman the other Federal agencies voted or ruled against the pipeline going under the Missouri river. but the US Corp of Engineers local offices ruled in favor of pipeline.
So we shall see if Obama intercedes soon I think he should . Clinton is history her compromises caught up with here at the end. To lose to Trumper is a real statement not to say there are some voting issues etc out there but a different subject.
What will the trumper do if the courts rule against the pipeline co.
Will he come down harder on Protestors?? that could be over play of his feeble hand!
So yes Marco Obama needs to Stand Up and act stop being the sweet Uncle Tom Polite Negro go along to get along guy , he does not have to worry anymore . Stand Up. I get that.
I say this in disgust with the political environment and not really at him. Strong words but I tell it the way I see it . Many many progressives have voiced similar analysis of his Inactions. We support him but understand his fear of being the angry black man and being vilified by the right wing racist machine. Real pressure he had to deal with. Classy dude. Babysitting the trumpster on how to set up a white House , amazing.
In fairness to him he had to refrain many times lest the angry red necks and racists and Marco America is full of racists sir, he had to not be the angry Black leader. Obama met that challenge well but he often dodged as he had to Hold back.
The first group of Army veterans arrive Sat and Sun , over 2,000 veterans coming to Stand in Solidarity with the Native Americans.
Reports of another 1,500 to 1,800 may also come come from the Eastern regions of the US. So the Army of resistance to oppression is growing stronger to join 7,000 current protesters.
The radio broadcast gave many accounts of ABUSE by the law men and their hired goon squads. This was a real treat to get frontline reports and interviews with a cross section of people whites, native Americans, Blacks , retired military and activists from all over. Over 350 Tribes are involved.
Where is phony baloney CNN ??? the corporate ad revenue media!
Atty General Lynch gave a talk and a warning today and is sending some Federal Agents out there ?? Support for the Protestors was mentioned and the order to evacuate the camps is not going to be Enforced next Tuesday.
Wells Fargo Bank is on the way to hold talks with the Standing Sioux Chairman as they are giving considerations to rescinding their loan to the pipeline co. So this is getting real involved and it can no longer be dismissed as a bunch of mis guided idealists staging public disruption.
This is serious Blowback to the big Oil machine and their allies the banks.
Perhaps these facts may cause you Marco to rethink your strong anti protestor positions and look at the bigger picture. I dont fall for any of this Morton Cty folks being so sweet etc. They are not. I know better.
As I said friends of mine cant take their wifes back to ND due to the blatant racism they get exposed to. They are citizens too.
Too many speakers gave chilling accounts of abuse at the hands of the hired mercenary GOOns and their dogs.
Lets see what the next move is. the radio show is called the Filter on Sirius Radio. 3 hr program the emcee spent 3 days and nights out there and watched in horror as young ladies who are medics were dragged out of their makeshift medical supply truck and thrown onto the ground and then peppered sprayed.
Un armed people. Women. That is the legacy of ND and Morton cty !
My position is this could start the process of leaving carbon in the ground and break the addiction . Reduce carbon levels period.
later on
Silent,
I think you should listen to a more balanced selection of news sources.
Here is some verifiable information resulting from the demonstrations.
So far there have been approximately 578 arrests. The nature of the arrests and who was arrested is interesting.
1) Only 60% of the arrested are related to activity related to protesting.
The remainder range from drug supply, (including one enterprising group with more than 25 lbs of assorted drugs, not including grass), Carnal knowledge of a person under 14 (several persons arrested) theft, attempted sexual assault, sexual assault, outstanding interstate warrant, grand theft auto, conspiracy to unlawfully obtain explosives, conspiracy to produce illegal explosives, possession of modified profane canisters, escaping State Prison, breach of bail (interstate) identity fraud, animal cruelty, unlicensed driving etc.
The most serious charges include a women who armed her self and fired on law enforcement after boasting of her desire to “off the pigs”. [please remember, whatever the media says, she’s innocent until found guilty by a jury of her peers]
2) Only 8% of the total arrested are from North Dakota. (30% of all arrested are from the West Coast.
3) Only four local Native Americans have been arrested, and only two for activities related to the demonstrations. The Morton County Sheriff stated that the local native tribes-folk had largely demonstrated peacefully,and within the spirit of lawful protest.
I think those two long serving deputies would resent your trivializing their service as merely “token”. In a force of only 34 total employees, two is about proportional, and when including the other minorities is very progressive. (Morton County appointed it’s first Native American in 1954).
It would appear the real cause for all the problems are not among the locals, but the flood of interstate protestors, and agitators, coupled with police units arriving from other jurisdictions and other states.
Unlike you, I’ve actually been to Morton County, met with local ranchers, including Native American tribes people, I saw no overt bigotry, nor was any complained about.
The story of the sanctuary owners, (Native Americans) is not made up or invented, I’ve visited their property. I believe these folk. It’s interesting to note no one has questioned the validity of their story.
No community is perfect, and I can only speak from my own limited experience. However, I’ve experience in the dynamics of situations like this, and the first casualty is the truth.
This is not the story of some bigoted local law enforcement protecting Jim Crow laws for a privileged minority. It’s the story of a overwhelmed small town Sheriff confronting a situation completely beyond his resources, shamefully abandoned by state and federal authorities.
Nor is the Sheriff or folks in Morton County beneficiaries of the pipeline. They have never been consulted. There’s no benefit for Morton County. The beleaguered Sheriff is simply upholding his sworn duty.
Lastly, I’m not anti-protestor. From my observations to Frank I am clearly sympathetic to non-violent lawful protest.
Nor am I sympathetic to unlawful actions by law enforcement.
I try to be objective.
@ Marco if you dont like the message dont shoot the messenger
I have listened to about 5 hours of reports from various people who are on the scene. Including US Congress people. the lady last nite was the one Democrat that trumper invited into to talk. Tulsi something from Hawaii she has lots of credibility from her military and public sector service.
I will believe her before some ND red neck sheriff and his hired staff and their contractor goons who are paid to maintain the status quo .
The sheriff and all his staff may or may not be such decent people. from what I heard and read and others say it is not at all what you report.
The chief of the Tribe and the Congress persons who have reported say no guns, drugs or alcohol are allowed. If they are lying then its on them Marco.
I am sure there are some rogue elements floating around looking to make a dollar. Probably on both sides now.
BTW the oil fields and their collection of unsavory worker types tend to be the big drug users. That is a well documented FACT. the social cost of excessive – key word is (excessive drilling) is it creates booms that attract the bottom feeders and many of the employees are unsavory types drugs, alcohol abuse and sexual abuse and other crimes. All the drilling areas have these social / criminal aspects to them the hidden social costs. Those externalities once again buried outside the real cost of the BTU’s.
Marco you can believe what you want or your interests influence you to believe sir.
I failed to mention the Tribal groups and their Allies are planning a big Washington Dc March and Protest on Dec 12th.
So much for being just a band of druggies and lost hippies foolish emotionally driven space cadets as you continue to infer!
The fact that Wells Fargo bank is going to talk to the Chief and discuss defunding their investment in the pipeline is note worthy!
Nothing else to share, you will discount it anyway. Go ahead blame Obama its all his doing and his fault and life will never be the same again. He leaves the trumper a much better performing economy
than he inherited from bush boy the Lessor! He left things much better than he started with.
Never seen a President vilified and criticized by so many that have themselves profited handsomely off his steady running of the country. Amazing. Hypocrisy of the ugly forces of Racism Rising Up !!
And he did this despite complete obstruction and severe partisanship of the gop negative leaders who are just out for them selves and not for the best interests of the American Public period end of story.
His policies created stability that his harshest critics on Wall St cried about and now they Cry all the way to the Bank with their paper profits DOW at all time High Go figure !
Those blue collar dumbells that have jobs in auto industry sure have Amnesia over and forgot who put butter on their bread ! Ungrateful souls!
I only bring Obama into this as YOU Marco lay blame for these protests on him . Cheap shots ! As I said he may have covered for Hillary due to election dynamics but now maybe he will intercede but then maybe he is playing Chess too…..ahah !
And now the protestors have clearly demonstrated that they have a just cause and thousands of allies. Numbers speak !
As that dumb blonde that shills for trumper said on CNN the other nite when challenged over some FACTs and her Spin. She said to the reporters that we live in a ERA now where its not about Facts !
We have Moved On ! such is the broken discourse of the current ERA.
I get it Marco. –
We also need to Keep it in the Ground !
cheers r
Silent,
There are none so blind as those who won’t see !
In your adulation for President Obama is there anyone you haven’t insulted or demeaned ? Working class Americans deserve respect. Perhaps that’s why working class Americans are so disillusioned, maybe they resent be called “blue collar dumbbells”.
You called people you’ve never met, “rednecks” “goons” etc while excusing violent lawbreakers. In your passion for an exciting “armed” conflict, you don’t stop to consider the consequences of your agitation.
Nothing can be resolved by violent abuse and name calling. Simplistic cries of “leave it in the ground”, are meaningless. The world still runs on Gas and Oil. There are no available substitutes.
I can build electric vehicles for specialist applications, but I can’t build an EV Fire-tender, Ambulance or emergency response vehicles. I can’t replace heavy transport, agricultural vehicles or replace the existing 3-4 billion engines that currently exist.
All the abuse and anger contained in your comments, won’t change anything, except leave behind bitter opposition.
I’m saddened by the glee with which you receive the news of people arming themselves for a confrontation. Perhaps if you witnessed a real armed conflict,up close and personal, you might discover it’s not like on TV or movies.
The original protestors may well have intended no guns, drugs or alcohol to be allowed, but with such huge numbers, they have long since lost control. However, it would explain why there are almost no arrests among the original protestors. (That also confirms the attitude of the Morton County Sheriff)
If as you suggest, President Obama is indeed simply “playing chess” and using the people of Morton County as pawns, then he should be ashamed ! There can be no “greater good’ or “end justifies the means” for a President to ignore his oath of office for political gain.
Marcopolo,
I wonder whether you really understand how politics actually works.
No elected official can do every desirable thing that he would like to do. There are always compromises. For example, a president may be able to do something highly beneficial only if he agrees to fund something that he thinks should not be funded. That is called compromising and too often there is no way to avoid it. Sometimes a senator is excoriated for voting against a bill when the reason he voted against it is that the bill contained a hidden provision that was completely unacceptable but not widely known.
We are not privy to everything president Obama is facing, or all the factors that enter into a decision made by a senator or member of the house of representatives.
When Obama was elected, he had to face exceedingly difficult problems he inherited from the previous president. In addition, racism, although it may be dying, is not yet dead. I’m convinced that Obama was to a significant degree hindered by racism.
Of course Obama is not perfect; no president is prefect nor will any president ever be perfect. However, they all face problems of which we are often unaware.
Hi Frank,
Oh c’mon ! This is a President in the last months of office faced with a simple task, perform his sworn duty !
In this case, his duty is clear. When a federal agency receives a request for assistance from local law enforcement for a matter in federal jurisdiction it’s obliged to respond. The huge well equipped and experienced federal agencies are eager to respond if authorized. Instead a small town Sheriff with 24 deputies, has been left to cope, despite his requests for assistance.
The US Marshal Service recommended and requested a co-ordinated Multi-agency approach. The protests could have ended in days, and mediation could be occurring. The Federal agencies were prevented from acting for political purpose by the White House.
It really is that simple !
How many excuses can you continue to make for this President ?
President Obama has a history of dithering and vacillating. In this case, by abandoning his duty as President he’s betrayed all the people of Morton County, including the native Americans.
Worse still, having deliberately exacerbated the situation, he’ll leave an inexperienced, ill equipped incoming President to manage a situation now grown to unmanageable proportions.
None of the excuses you can advance, can alter those facts. Democrat giants, must be ashamed of this President.
@ Craig thanks for posting this Peak oil a Theory Relegated to Dust bin or something….
Some of us commented / challenged you and we morphed into the Dakota Pipeline protests even while we had that discussion going.
While it includes lots of social and political issues I have tried to bring it back to the issue. By keeping it in the Ground we limit production and future pollution and contribute to the transition away from over dependence on fossil fuel and Lowering Carbon emissions.
That is my motivation but also this protest movement in ND has grown into a large counter force to the Industrial machine that thinks money can buy everything and rule our lifes. It re exposes us to the Injustices done to the Native Americans and the insensitivity of so many towards their negative conditions.
@ Frank your sensitive and truthful comments on the plight of the Native Americans and the historical racism that is the bed rock of our society and fear based culture are wonderful. You make good sense and p good points.
I appreciate you also speaking up for Obama as what you said and I had said to Marco is Truth.
Obama did do many good things for america , though he disappointed me and many others as we felt he compromised too much. But perhaps we were not realistic or as Frank said none of us know all the reasons behind all things. We have to accept complexity.
Our colleague Marco attacks and does not see any good in any of this – his claims that we must blindly follow some vague sense of Order and accept things is not right.
Obama is in a difficult place and was fighting Obstruction, racism, Ignorant voters and you said it well.
Marco if my bluntness and ability to discern things and cut to the chase and put labels on groups bothers you , that is not my problem. People who know me know my Heart. Full of Service for many and most.
But I have the right to exercise Wisdom and call things as they are based on years of living and not mealy mouse around. There are alot of dumb folks out there and they fall into different groups. So those Dumb Bell Blue collar types that do vote against their Best interests and have done so many times since 1980 is just a fact of life. Its one of my favorite sayings and many of my friends use it also they get crude more so than me. I have always been able to co exist with Red necks know how to charm them and make em laugh.
The arrogance of the East and West Coast Coffee Lattee crowd is another group. ( phony weak so called liberals) or extreme PC types . See there are many groups and you can find good in some. I have successfully interacted with these two extremes and everything in between for close to 55 years.
But there comes time to tell it like it is. Dumb Red necks are pervasive in those parts and the example of racism I gave with my two ND friends who cant go home w their wifes anymore speaks for itself.
This protest thing is not Obama s main responsibility I think he is playing Chess and I even took a shot at him myself by saying some of the reporters and Dems thought he was providing cover to Hillary earlier on as the trumpster and the like were throwing so much dirt at her. Perhaps he wanted to down play lil hillary’s fancy for pushing fracking on various countries in Europe and Se Asia. She was having trouble getting Bernie voters excited about her. Which did her in.
You are right that many of those dumb blue bell types voted against hillary and for good reasons to a degree , that is on her and a result of her Elite arrogance and out of touch life style.
However Marco her arrogance aside she now has close to 3 Million more votes Nationally. Just a detail for you to ponder – dont come back w voter fraud dont waste the electrons.
So your strong claims against Obama are Offensive Sir. You are out of place.
The racially motivated Corp Of Engineers seems to have made a over sight and that is why things are going to be heard in Court.
That is the way it appears.
You are afraid of the Movement as it just might gain much needed traction and people might start thinking about their fellow mankind more and maybe a lil less about money and power !
Your casual dis regard of the abuse of theNnative Americans is typical of many in America. Our Nation has never made complete restitution to them but kept them in a state of Bondage and Stagnation.
We have thrown gambling at them as a economic ladder when they need real economic programs to end their dependency and the social ills that go with that.
FYI in the 1990’s the GAO and the Bureau of Indian Affairs finally finished a comprehensive audit of all the lost revenues to the various tribes in America . These lost revenues were the fault of various Government agencies like bureau of Minerals and Mines , the BLM , The Mining Dept and others . they purposely deceived the Natives in land lease and royalty payments. So our genocide did not stop with Custer s much deserved Last Stand and Defeat!
The agreed upon oil, gas, coal, mining, royalties owed to the Native Americans was in the several Billions Billions . This is money that has never been paid.
Clinton like most Neo Liberals did lots of talking lil real Action and said now they would get paid but the best he could do was get a few Billion actually paid out. Time has passed Bush the Lessor did nothing and Obama had more research done and discovered more money that is owed. but he had no congress to work with him. So again just a few billions have been paid. I have forgotten the total amount . It is over 50 billion my memory says in the 80 Billion range but not sure.
Marco and fellow Americans it is lots of billions and would lift everyone of them out of poverty. The Albq paper did a long expose on this in the mid 1990’s.
To be as cavalier about the Natives plight and say the discussions of these maters is long ago dead is just Not right . Frank and I are speaking up for Justice. What is wrong with that.
You said it, yes we got a real Novice reality tv clown as a new President whose personal racial and cultural bigotry is going to get tested out real soon. Those protesters in Washington have him in their targets also.
Since the Corporate revenue driven media will not cover these events in ND they will get exposure by going to Washington and the culture of push back to the new regime will begin.
Given the general dreary state of things it looks Great.
Now as I said Obama may send in Marshall etc and the Judge may rule before too long on the entire case. Things may calm down which would be good.
Marco if things were as simple as you try to lay out and the Indians were not against the pipeline explain why close to 7,000 people and tribes 350 of them, and all the other Americans and now the service members are there so close to 10,000 people.
Why are they out there getting sprayed with bone chilling water, shot at with flash grenades, smoke bombs and noise blasters dealing with cold winter and yes many have been locked up in cages and treated badly. Why are they still out there !
Why is Wells Fargo bank thinking of pulling out like the Norwegian Bank did. ??? do these things mean anything to you. Why are they talking to the tribe ?????
If you were a General would you be blindly marching off into a cause that may be a trap for your forces ???
I do not advocate the use of Fire Arms or violence etc but if you push people too hard then they react the way they react. that is Wisdom Marco.
Documented acts of violence have been made by the private goon squads hired by the Pipeline co and maybe this lil beloved Morton Cty of yours.
I have driven thru a few times and eaten in cafes around there. Did much work further North, East and West out in the Baaken.
Many of the people are just Rural and ultra conservative and think very Insular , rather simple and remind me of the Red Necks of Texas and NM ,they are challenged by creative thoughts and things and people that are not exactly like them .They get insecure real fast. etc.
They are very easy to Charm and sell though and if one keeps things real light you can get along. Some have a good work ethic etc.
the way it is.
If this pipeline gets stopped this will be a good thing going forward. It will be a different form of peak Oil manifesting itself. Similar groups in Alberta Canada are forming to reduce the tar sand activity. So its people Power. what is wrong with that. ??
blaming Obama for everything. If he ran again he would win again lots of people including Republicons who are nice like him.
His popularity despite the racism and all the mean things said by the right wing nuts his rating is 57 % approval damn high.
Bush the Lessor was in the low 20 % range or lower.
Now Obama has to hold the trumpers hand as the Real estate Con man has no clue how things work and Obama is doing it with decency and class. Helping a buffoon who waged a sinister war of false claims against Obama’s citizenship the Birtherism BS – talk about irony – now Obama has to hold the Con mans hands and help him casue he Obama is a real American and real Diplomat.
so lets see what happens with the court and if the Feds shut it all down so things calm down. But people have aright to voice their Will too. Maybe the Pipeline Co will make a better deal with the Tribes ???
I would like for it to end the pipeline and keep the oil in the ground. for Environmental reasons.
Great words of Understanding Frank. We are both his targets. Its a Badge of Honor but the false claims are bit much.
When the South lets go of its failed Plantation style civics and policies it will retain its Best and Brightest and rise up economically. they are in self imposed Bondage to faded falsehoods!
keep it in the Ground reduce pollution New horizons for Mankind!
Silent,
Good post. But simply giving the Native Americans a windfall of billions of dollars could do more harm than good, even if that is what they are owed. There have been studies done on people who have won huge amounts of money in lotteries. Also some have benefitted, the result of suddenly receiving large amounts of money us usually negative.
Of course compensating Native Americans for being cheated could be considered to be the correct moral thing to do, but perhaps not. Quite honestly, I don’t know what should be done. Encouraging them to become better educated could be beneficial without downsides, but whether that could be done I don’t know.
I am quite willing to acknowledge that I do not have all the answers for all serious problems.
Hi Frank,
Well said.
The US is not alone in finding difficulty with solutions for Indigenous peoples.
The issue is even more complicated when it comes to Indigenous people who themselves displaced others. Just giving money or housing, even education might not be helpful. It’s a problem of assimilation.
Assimilation is a term out of favour with modern thinking, yet it’s inevitable. The idea that “cultural identities ” can be preserved, without taint, is idealistic but unrealistic.
The only question remaining is how the indigenous people assimilate. We have seen how Indigenous people can assimilate badly, the evidence is all too obvious. Less obvious is the process of beneficial assimilation.
Western society and moral values are based on the concept of individual responsibility and personal achievements,including wealth. This doesn’t fit with tribal or collective societies.
It seems the worst result occurs, (and this is a generalization) indigenous people develop a “victim mentality”. As “victims” , they don’t have to be personally responsible for their own lives, nor do they have to live by the ancient ways.
Guilt ridden, white do-gooders teach political activism, a sense of entitlement, but never consider the consequences.
It’s popular to say, “we stole the Indigenous …. oil, minerals etc”. We never stop to think of the implications. Realistically, we can’t steal something someone else doesn’t have !
The indigenous people had no concept of the resource, no method of extraction, and no use for the product. it takes a hugely advanced society to need these resources, and one with a rapidly expanding population.
We teach our citizens the value of enterprise, sacrifice, hard work and personal responsibility. Without these values, it’s impossible to be successful in Western society.
Giving people the benefits, without learning the cost, is also “stealing ” from their development.
It’s a very difficult issue. Recently I saw a TV show about Australian indigenous families living in remote communities.
The camera’s revealed the plight of one family in a run down house, with paint pealing on the inside walls and rusted kitchen fittings. Very third world.
The indignant young BBC TV presenter and her guests from the UN human rights commission, enjoyed castigating Australia and angrily contrasted these circumstances with the comparative wealth of a White community 30 miles away.
The Indigenous home consisted of a standard three bedroom suburban style villa, housing three adults and 3 children.
The home was very neglected, but a basically sound dwelling.
Watching the TV show and listening to the guilt ridden city studio audience, full of passionate young (and not so young) outraged and castigating Australians for being racist, I started wondering why no one asked the obvious question.
” Why does this family live in squalor in the mist of a wealthy first world nation ? ”
Our friend Silent would answer, “It’s all the fault of red neck Aussies, oppressing the Indigenous folk”.
Maybe….. But here my thinking. First, some questions must be asked.
1) Q. Who owns the dwelling ?
A. Indigenous community trust, rental $200 per year !
2) Q. Family Income ?
A. Government assistance, welfare $ 1700+ per week.
3) Q. Expenses ?
A. Free power and water, Free schooling, free healthcare.
4) Q. Employment ?
A. All three adults unemployed.(Employment available)
5) Q. Average White income ?
A. $ 730 before tax.
Hmmm, some nights later I was at a dinner party where the show was discussed with much head shaking, and condensation of the wickedly callous white Australian racists.
It never occurred to anyone the indigenous folk were living in a squalor of their own making! When I pointed out the obvious, that if you wanted to live in a house without broken windows, don’t break the windows, I received a chorus of disapproval!
When I pointed out that there was nothing stopping the indigenous residents buying some paint, a roller, some rust preventive, and performing a little DYI maintenance, you’d think from the reaction of my fellow guests, I’d changed into KKK robes !
The consensus the “government ” should do something (refurbish the house), was unanimous ! One particularly indignant woman accused me of condoning child abuse if the children were encouraged to decorate their own rooms.
Others accused me of wanting forced assimilation ! By which they meant forcing Western values on indigenous people.
I realize this example is a generalization, but it illustrates how the white “guilt” industry can do more damage to Indigenous aspirations, than assimilation.
At one time, immigrants from other countries were expected to give up their entire culture to become Americans. That was a mistake and it is no longer expected of them. At public parks in many cities they will have perhaps a German day, a French day, a Polish day, etc., at which people descended from those nationalities will wear their ancestral national clothing, serve national dishes, etc. etc. Some people not of that national descent will even take part and join the fun. That’s the way it should be.
I think that the same thing should be true with indigenous people. They don’t have to give up their entire culture, but of course they do have to make some adjustments. How best to help them do that without going to far is a problem and we don’t always know how. Even so, there are indigenous people who have got advanced degrees, including even PhDs, have well integrated them selves, but are able to visit their native areas from time to time and also fit in there. I’ve seen that in Fiji where I lived from 1994 to 2004.
Hi Frank,
Yes indeed, there is nothing wrong with maintaining a level of cultural diversity as long as it doesn’t separate, isolate or render the individual unable to participate, or contribute, in the broader general community.
Hi Frank,
I just arrived back in Australia and looked up some of the notes I made on my visit to Morton County USA several years ago.
Energy Transfer Partners LP, when planning the construction of the pipeline could hardly have chosen a more obvious course to challenge local Native American sensitivities.
The company must have realized the presence of the US Army Corp of Engineers would not be welcomed by the local native Americans.
Yet, incredible as it sounds in this day and age, the only public relations and consulting effort seems to have been to satisfy the legal minimum. The The 1,172-mile pipeline project is mostly complete except for the section to be laid Lake Oahe .
Lake Oahe is an artificial lake built in the 1950’s over the objections of the local tribes, as a result there’s a considerable legacy of humiliation and mistrust.
Although the local NI appreciate the Dam, they remain unhappy that over 200,000 acres of Standing Rock Reservation and Cheyenne River Reservations were flooded to build the Lake, for which they received very meager compensation.
Given this history, and the importance of the section to completing the pipeline, you might imagine negotiating an inclusive and conciliatory package to enlist the support of the local NI would be a priority, instead of just the legal minimum.
Good PR and good relationships, are much cheaper than conflict,disputes and litigation.
Originally, most of the Standing Rock Reservation and Cheyenne River Reservation locals were not opposed to pipelines as such, they simply wanted to be consulted and included in the environmental planning.
The attitude of the Army Corp of Engineers and Energy Transfer Partners LP has been legally correct, but commercially insensitive and woefully lacking in any effort to win over all the parties in what must have been obvious to anyone, was potentially a difficult situation.
Sure, some of the NI demands were initially excessive, or fanciful, but no more so than any opening negotiating position.
Energy Transfer Partners LP should have engaged people experienced in dealing with situations where a lot of old injustices will have to be aired and listened to, understood and accepted, before moving on to negotiate a realistic compromise.
Nothing in the ‘core’ NI demands was excessively onerous .(I’ve seen a lot worse).
Having spoken to some of the parties involved, (and from my experience in negotiating similar situations), my analysis of this dispute is it should never have become a conflict.
Unfortunately, the original problem has become overwhelmed with a lot of passion about completely extraneous issues, by interlopers.
The Native Americans are being swept along on tide by people with agenda’s that don’t benefit Standing Rock Reservation and Cheyenne River Reservations.
Energy Transfer Partners LP and Corp of Engineers have committed to a legalistic, disatrously bloody minded approach of crash through or burn, where there can be no “winner” , especially not the company.
The Bismark and Federal politicians have also dropped the ball, preferring to exploit the situation for political purposes.
The protest has become a cause célèbre, with ever widening and more diverse agenda’s most of which will prove of little positive, but mostly negative results for the people of Standing Rock Reservation and Cheyenne River Reservations.
The folk of Morton County and it’s beleaguered Sheriff have suffered most unfairly from this unwanted intrusion into their community. They will be the ones left to clean up the mess, and rebuild their devastated community.
That’s my analysis, and most of the verifiable facts seem to support it’s accuracy.
A true American tragedy.
Silent,
I try to respect every person, reserving my criticisms for their actions, behavior or advocacy. I also try to be sincere when dealing with all classes and ethnicity of people. I refrain from calling people names, I wouldn’t say to their face. Respect, breeds respect.
I don’t dislike President Obama as a human being, I believe he’s basically an intelligent well meaning individual.
His performance as President has been diligent and quite good in some areas, but he dithers and vacillates when strong, resolute decisions are required.
Like most well meaning individuals, you are extremely vocal about what you don’t like, but have no practical solutions.
Solutions are very difficult. Just shouting vague futuristic plans based on inadequate technologies, and distorted figures isn’t helpful.
The slogan “leave it in the ground”, is pretty safe to say, because you know it ain’t gunna happen!
Give me the plans to build a practical, economic, EV Fire-tender, Ambulance or emergency response vehicle. how about the millions of heavy transport, agricultural vehicles etc ?
Show me how to replace the existing 3-4 billion engines that currently exist on this planet and are essential for human existence.
Cut out red meat, because you love animals ? Okay, but first you must kill all those pet dog’s and cats, that need meat to survive. That’s right, all 3 billion of them !
Want to help Native Americans living on reservations with real jobs ? How ? It’s very difficult.( Anything subsidized, is just another form of welfare).
I don’t have all the answers ! That’s why I try to keep my environmental advocacy on a practical, realistic level. My solutions may be humble, but I can demonstrate they work.
@ Frank good postings – you are Balanced and I am like you I don’t have all the answers either .
We agree many wrongs have been done over the decades and many of the Federal or Government solutions or remedies have not delivered all the intended consequences. But due to our revolving Carousel door of a flawed election system we lack continuity in our Policy and Programs to implement Effective Policy. Serious issues require continuity to resolve and our system goes left and right up and down in a never ending circle of watered down and in some cases mutually exclusive policy decisions! We suffer greatly as a result.
That is the Achilles Heel of much of what ails us! my take .
I brought up the Mineral royalty issue theft as a concrete example of the magnitude of the Excessive exploitation of the Native peoples.
I would bet many of the under informed and mis informed bubbas and barbie doll Americans are Clue less to this Royalty payment issue. Too much reality TV perhaps LOL LOL LOL
Giving them financial restitution can be done with tight reins and clear purpose perhaps if executed properly it might Break the long cycle of dependency and dysfunction that yes plagues many of these peoples to this day .
As expressed by Marco the poor results are despite efforts no matter how feeble they may have been to help these peoples. Your description of Aussie home etc and the program is typical .
I see that and have worked amongst these people. Its a complicated and conflicting subject for sure. Similar to our Urban ghetto situations and institutionalized poverty and moral decay that we see in the Ghetto.
@ Marco thank you for coming back down to Earth and showing and expressing some better understanding and sensitivity to the plight of the Natives.
Your assessment of Energy Partners blunders w the Corp of Engineers is pretty good. This whole thing could have been avoided it appears.
Our systems are broken for dealing with these issues. Despite all the highly paid government agencies and lawyers no one catches the details it seems.
However, the fact remains The US owes the Natives Billions $$$ and any further rationalization of the situation is a denial of basic Truths and Wrongs perpetrated against the Native s.
I see the whole thing as a Golden Opportunity for massive economic development of the Heartland and the benefactors would include the white people who share the lands and economies.
We need Opportunity to renew and restore our Heartlands and Lift up boats. Blue and Redneck and No neck et al!
Tragically, Our country for far too long has mis placed its priorities playing global Policeman and under mining relations among st the World Order. Our results have been inconsistent as have our actions been inconsistent with our so called Values.
In the process we have mis spent our Treasure , Blood and lost Good will much deeper than the Elitists Globalists would ever recognize.
Oh yeah countries want us around so our bloated military can protect their economy and ability to make more money. We became like Mercenary’s but we dont get paid we do the paying! what a twist of events!
If we had taken care of our Internal issues better we would be a stronger society and we would not have all these splinter groups that are now at each other. And it has only just begun.
while Marco you are more conciliatory in your last two posts good.
You still make gross over generalizations about things.
Sir there are Red necks and selfish people a fact of life and there are dumb bell blue collar or pink collar or no collar folks out there and their collective ignorance keeps all of us in Bondage to Failures . Some have to be brought along with a tight rein as they choose poor solutions that are grounded in denial and both Delusion. & Illusion’s.
Keep or leave it in the Ground is a battle cry for large International Environmental Groups that are serious about the Future of Earth. The followers of that position are growing as human awareness of the Need for Change Real change not cosmetic change.
You want to sell more EVs then pray for the price of oil to go up up up.
It is not a Folly or make a wish upon a star slogan it can be done. Like all arduous tasks it has to have a beginning so I see this pipeline in that perspective. The Greater Good could be a Outcome. Maybe not but it does no harm to Try.
I would argue to the cows get lost that perhaps a more Collective Social system is just what the World needs now to move forward in a more Harmonious manner. The current system is not working very well and it is tired and divisive.
Your disdain for the collective ways of the Natives is too shallow for me.
Yes they are broken and that house situation you describe is sad and is a reflection of a broken human spirit when they allow themselves to stagnate like that. That is not all the fault of the White man.
The Natives need to take some responsibility .
But many mis deeds were done over History that helped to create these tragic failures on all sides and it is a Moral Hazard for us better positioned whites to merely disregard the problems of the Natives as entirely their own making! Self righteous Denial! or Comfortable Rationalizations as we are complicit in creating much of it …our failure despite all our so called sophistication and so called superior ways to implement working remedies is a testament to our mis placed priorities as a culture.
BTW Former Gen W Clark sons are involved with the veterans at ND. there are over 3,000 service members there per the paper and more on the way.
So a coming together of different people of all colors and races and creeds is happening. this is good news for Humanity. shows many others care about each other and are not all beholden to the weight of the corporate Jack Boots!
As for the Pipeline maybe the owners will make a deal and the banks pay off the tribes ? who knows.
But maybe this is the start of the Grass Roots Movement where the people Stood Up together In solidarity to the Big Oil machine and said Enough is Enough.
One last thing I would love to have the Honor and the Responsibility to lead a group of technocrats balanced with hearts and manage the Billions that we owe the Natives. It would be a great opportunity to build out a localized economic sector that raises boats and gets buy in from the Natives and they could shed this Dysfunction that keeps them in chains.
The programs would include all people too A collective effort and Coming Together – rugged individualism has failed us all!
Simply cutting checks to everyone is not the answer I agree. Welfare without Responsibility or a Action Plan is another form of Failure that is for sure.
Lets see what the FEDs or Courts do.
Take care Frank and Mate Marco
@ Marco Its Sunday Morning I am feeling Empowered so I say it again at the risk of your Incessant criticism and mass generalizations
KEEP IT IN THE GROUND A REALISTIC STEP FORWARD TO A BETTER PLANET!
Like Col Travis at the Alamo Draw a Line in the Sand and take a Side and Live with it.
Carry On
Silent,
There is no “side” to take ! It doesn’t help yelling (or writing in uppercase) “Keep it in the ground “, if you then go out and drive to the gas station !
If you can’t offer a practical alternative, then your slogan is meaningless.
It’s far better to be defined by what you’re for, than what you’re against.
Show me something positive and I’ll eagerly support it, but “keep it in the ground ” is just a meaningless phrase, shouted by people with nothing positive to contribute.
@ Frank your example of intra cultural acceptance and blending is a good way for people to evolve and leave some of the Clanish tendencies behind . Those Clanish ways can limit positive human interactions and prevent society from evolving into a more Harmonious mix of cultures.
We can all benefit and live richer lives .
Marco I dont consider Mr Bill McKibben a negative person but rather a visionary and one of many who have coined that phrase Leave It in the Ground as a Rallying point to take the environmental Movement addressing GHG etc in a serious direction.
The effort has to expand beyond just reforming the manner in which we generate power. The sooner the price for oil goes up the more rapid the penetration rate for EV s will become which will have positive Cascading benefits for all.
That is point.
Lets see and wish that a good resolution to the ND pipeline issues comes to bear soon.
Silent,
The reason “just leave it in the ground” is naive, silly and trite, is because it ain’t gonna happen !
It’s about as much value as a beauty pageant contestant pledging to ” work for world peace” !
There are more than 350,000 essential products derived from oil. No one, (well, very few) is so fanatical as to forgo benefiting from the use of these products.
EV technology is currently limited to cars and light vehicles. Existing ESD capacity is inadequate for heavy vehicles.
The problem isn’t the price of oil, it’s the technology. All over the world, R&D is being conducted into better ESD capacity, when that barrier is broken, EV’s will replace most ICE road traffic.
You only have two choices, imported oil or North American oil. No oil, is not an option.
North Dakota’s oil fields need the pipeline to be competitive against imported oil.
That’s why Bill McKibben’s bleatings are unrealistic, and irrelevant.
I also want this dispute settled so both the native Americans concerns are addressed fairly and respectfully, the pipeline completed to the best environmental standard, and no further destruction occurs to the folks of Morton County .
The last thing any of the peace loving participants needs is for the incoming President to add further grief to an already badly handled situation.
There’s already been enough grandstanding, with involving the granddaddy of all grandstanders !
@ Marco
Your comments reveal your real position more and more clearer.
Mr McKibben and others like him have marshaled great forces in NATIONAL efforts to help change energy usage patters , clean up air emissions, etc., and begin the transition to cleaner fuels.
I know the challenges that EV s etc face I have stated that.
One of the best things that could drive more adoption and greater improvements in EV s is rising gas prices so anything that drives them up I am All for.
I just read a nice article about Chevy’s new Bolt EV a nice car and fully functional with over 200 mile range the longest and a decent ( not great price Point) $30 k after tax credits. God Bless Bowtie Chevrolet for trying to Innovate etc.
The bad news is or the reality news is that due to current low gas prices it will take over 15 years to break even on the price premium of the EV Versus the popular hot selling Mid size Chevy Cruze w gas engine. A Crue goes for low 20 K range depends or less.
The savings from EV s at the current price of car and low gas really extends the timeline of the savings far out probably beyond the life of the BOLT !
That is a steep Reality challenge. Keep Oil in ground drives up prices and changes things. Basic understanding of Economics makes this a Moot Issue.
You might like this part Mate, Only California s Zero Emission program makes the market there for these EV s , as the car manufacturers who want to do business there have to average out their fleet with zero or low emission vehicles to make it. . so regulation is the driver . Point! Chevy and others are leveraging this reality and the car is really for that market. There will be others car co’s following.
So w the California rules there is a market. I am not saying this is bad but pointing out the economic reality.
Keep it in the Ground drives Up oil Prices a good thing for a cleaner future . Drives Innovation etc. The Sky will not fall!
Now you will really go into attack mode. Save your keystrokes . I am making perfecto sense. Its economics.
You discounted the Shell future predictions Marco with your typical perpsective. that is fine . I too have my doubts about them. I don’t Trust the Mountain Strategy. I think our Lot is better off with the Ocean pathway!
Your arguments and positions sir – align very nicely with their Shell Mountain Energy Strategy .
I choose the Ocean Strategy and Position so we have to get started somewhere and if it means we leave some in the ground so be it.
You blast them SHELL Oil but then you take their position ! Are you Conflicted perhaps ???Everyone knows we use petroleum products for 1,000 s of things. Irrelevant Point. We are saying reduce the fuel portion and its emissions.
What is so difficult about that point Mate??? We can keep some oil flow Its not going to stop it over night , there will be a Transition period but at much faster rate. Its about being Reasonable
Your Nuclear Genie Crony Lawrence even thinks we need to transition faster so what gives with you???
Well the GODs must have read our ongoing discussion as today the Federal government announced the Permit for the Pipeline has been pulled. They ordered a Stop.
There will be some re study of the entire permit, route of the pipeline etc.
So a truce has been called. Obama gave the order Sunday night,.
Its all over the newspapers. So lets see where this goes as I said last time.
So you can go Vilify him if that is your fancy.
Silent,
President Obama’s hesitancy and delays are just a cave in to the demands of the protestors. He’s simply left the problem to his successor.
This isn’t a victory, everyone loses.
The Native Americans are no better off. If a different route at greater expense is found, no one will ever know if the original route would have been safe and harmless. When all the media and public interest moves on, the NI leaders will find themselves yesterdays heroes, forgotten and once again abandoned, with only a legacy of bitterness and dissension among their own community and resentment from many in the wider populace.
North Dakota and the US economy are certainly not better off. Money that would have flowed into communities and public services, hospitals, roads, education etc, will now be spent on importing energy.
The incoming administration will have to deal with the precedent of every time a road, a bridge, any public amenity is constructed, any small but violently noisy group can feel free to be disruptive and expect the government and law enforcement to cave in to demands.
So who really benefited from this decision, which should have been made much, much earlier ?
But that’s the problem with all weak decisions, after all the heat and fury has died away, who benefited ?
Were the sacred sites ever threatened ? Was the pipeline unsafe ? no one will ever know. Have the NI gained anything ? Not really, in 5 years time they will (like all political pawns) be forgotten except for the lingering deterioration of relations in their own community.
The people of Morton County have every reason to feel used and betrayed by the US authorities. As the carnival moves on elsewhere, it will be they who are forced to clean up the destruction and mess left behind. No one will give a damn about their lives or the trauma this has wrought to a small community.
This is a craven decision, the inevitable result of poor prior planning and bad crises management.
I prefer to think of this as just another example of a President who is inclined to dither, than a cynical political opportunist seeking to make himself popular with his own constituency, rather than adhere to the principles of law and national interest.
“leave in the ground” will not help US EV sales. The glut in oil supply is so large globally that the price will not rebound for a very long time. Any reduction in US production will simply be met by US imports, hurting the US economy while enriching and strengthening OPEC which lost most of it’s former influence due to increased US production.
If you want to help EV’s and the US economy, then simply increase the price of gasoline at the pump with higher taxation. The additional revenue could be used to promote clean tech, retire debt etc.
The US consumes approximately 180 billion gallons of gasoline and diesel per year. even a modest 50 cent increase would provide the US with enough revenue (and compounding revenue) to fund some truly stunning environmental or public infrastructure projects.
The additional revenue wouldn’t come at the expense of domestic energy producers, since the tax would be at the pump. Nor would it greatly affect the economy, since gasoline and diesel are at an historically low price.
A modest increase in tax would serve far greater purpose than any silly “leave it in the ground” nonsense.
Increasing consumption taxes takes political courage. The public must believe that the money raised is well spent.
Good government takes courage and a lot of thorough planning, not seeking easy popularity.
@ Marco your Post deserves a content laden and fact filled reply we also injected a mix of Sardonic and Ironic humor into a most sincere attempt at responding to you in a respectful manner, trust you enjoy !
To anyone else please understand he and I are in a deep exchange as the chasm and divide over this issue is deep. I want to leave it in the ground and Marco finds this to be wrong and foolish.
So here we go the wine was good tonight.
Marco, Perhaps the news of the Presidential and Army Corp ruling does not settle well with you as you continue to make Broad Brushed comments denigrating the entire process as if the Sky is going to melt and Fall upon us as the People have risen Up and spoken their Truths to the Powers that be.
That may be the driving force behind your position s but America despite its many flaws still has some semblance to a democracy and people are allowed to gather and join together and express their positions and it is their right to Stand Up for what they Believe is their Rights! The Power of Money and Privilege don’t trump the rights of people. The money may have the deck rigged and get their way but if the resistance grows and grows then some of those in the money chain lose Heart and the Tide can shift into a Rebuke of Power.
You wrote Silent,
President Obama’s hesitancy and delays are just a cave in to the demands of the protesters. He’s simply left the problem to his successor.
Silent – Highly political accusation – the issue s should have been addressed much earlier in the pipeline design stages but election politics and the influence of money caused the US Army Corp not to do its real due diligence a few years ago. The oil industry has bought and seduced the State government of ND over the past 12 years – Continental Oil for example gave the State close to $ 25 million dollars in two separate grants to get – go along to get along environmental B A U policies in the state.
Marco says- This isn’t a victory, everyone loses.
Silent retorts – No one has lost yet – it is a first Stage Victory for the native Americans and their Allies – there are over 7,000 Native and American activists there and the brigades of US Army veterans has swelled to over 4,200 by end of today. So over 11,000 people making a Stand! Just a few disgruntled idealists in search of a lost cause blah blah blah !
Marco – The Native Americans are no better off. If a different route at greater expense is found, no one will ever know if the original route would have been safe and harmless. When all the media and public interest moves on, the NI leaders will find themselves yesterdays heroes, forgotten and once again abandoned, with only a legacy of bitterness and dissension among their own community and resentment from many in the wider populace.
Silent says -Today retired General W Clarks son gave a touching and monumental speech during the Indian Prayer Ceremony surrounded by Natives and all the 4,200 plus service members – his oratory was Spiritual and Apologetic in Tone – he said that his group is on the side of Justice. They will support the Native Americans – they came in the cold in winter to express their Solidarity with the Native American people – to tell the Natives that they are Sorry for the mass exploitation and abuse of the Native people that America has done since the beginning of the Expansion of America. They came to show our government that real soldiers who have defended America no longer approve of abusing the Indians it has to stop. They are Allies to the Native Americans and will take additional actions as needed. Other events will be planned in Unison with the tribes. The generals son said they have researched some of the legal issues involved in this dispute and it is apparent that the government , Pipeline co and the state of ND have violated terms of the original peace treaty from the 1800 s. So the
service men are making a statement that Enough is Enough and they in good conscience can no longer stand idly by and allow more genocide / abuse to continue.
Powerful and Touching to listen to over the airways! The Voices of Real American service members and not the shrill words and fear mongering we hear from various Chicken Hawks!
Marco shared
North Dakota and the US economy are certainly not better off. Money that would have flowed into communities and public services, hospitals, roads, education etc, will now be spent on importing energy.
Silent states – These are Red Herring positions based on prior practices by the ND government . They have had several years of high volume oil / gas extraction and their coffers should be over flowing some say their State Bank reserves are ? but its only their own fault if they have not taxed the industry at a sufficient level to finance future needs. But gomers rarely think long term they tend to be short sighted! Anyone with any knowledge of best environmental practices knows they grossly underfunded and discouraged proper environmental policies over seeing the shale boom. There are numerous abandoned churches on the Prairie where rogue energy co’s have made mid night drop offs of drilling sludges ( while low level radio active but still toxic ) Silent Running actually performed some Environmental tests there in 2005 to 2007 period. If the media only cared to report on Americas Industrial Sacrifice Zones ! Teddy Roosevelt is turning in his Grave over the Poor Stewardship allowed by the state !- also Native American lands and landfills have had rogue incidents of illegal dumping of these toxic materials into Native landfills – White man dumping on Red Man nothing has changed. Another unreported issue from the Baaken! Grave and serious environmental injustice practiced against the Native Americans.
There is plenty of oil in area and no hardships will incur. They have not effectively taxed to improve their state at levels they easily could have – they did not milk the cows properly is the common knowledge of the area. At least Wyoming does tax their resources at sufficient levels to improve their common lot.
Marco laments –
The incoming administration will have to deal with the precedent of every time a road, a bridge, any public amenity is constructed, any small but violently noisy group can feel free to be disruptive and expect the government and law enforcement to cave in to demands.
So who really benefited from this decision, which should have been made much, much earlier ?
Silent counters again –
This will present a real political challenge to the trumpster – he has investments in the pipeline so BAU decision to side with the pipeline owners may trigger serious Public Blowback in the communities and shatter the big lie that he is some sort of populist that cares about regular people when he was just doing his life long CON job. Trumpster will soon be in Cat Bird seat and a trigger point in resistance to his reign will accelerate. . Many of Pandoras Black Swans will soon be set free and this could lead to expanding public blowback! The Generals son said they would recruit more service members to resist the Government running over the Native Americans. This early victory in the cold plains of ND may be the opening shots in a long campaign of attrition against the trump regime …Bring it trumpster side with Energy Partners and it will come! Bring it you were a draft dodger back in the day and real service men want to address you and call you OUT!
Silent continues
On a few points you are right Marco in that it should have been addressed earlier. but our broken process in America they use to have deep serious hearings in Senate and Congress on issues like this great debate – those were the good days long gone and the blame is at the feet of those who have held power since 2010. Accountability starts there not in the White House. They don’t like debate because they are on the wrong side of the issues and the public will learn those dumb bell blue collars types will learn their Masters are on the take and payroll of the energy cos. Then the Hoax on public will be over so they hide behind slogans and fear based slogans. Such comedy but its actually tragic.
Marco continues with words of fear and looming disaster
But that’s the problem with all weak decisions, after all the heat and fury has died away, who benefited ?
Were the sacred sites ever threatened ? Was the pipeline unsafe ? no one will ever know. Have the NI gained anything ? Not really, in 5 years time they will (like all political pawns) be forgotten except for the lingering deterioration of relations in their own community. It turns out proper due diligence was not followed this will come out in the courts
The people of Morton County have every reason to feel used and betrayed by the US authorities. As the carnival moves on elsewhere, it will be they who are forced to clean up the destruction and mess left behind. No one will give a damn about their lives or the trauma this has wrought to a small community.
Silent points to some facts – Blame their Governor and the Corp of Engineers for not following the treaty guidelines..
Marco
This is a craven decision, the inevitable result of poor prior planning and bad crises management.
Silent reminds and points out –
The pipeline had plans to go further North closer to Bismarck but the White people did not want it in their backyard is what some of the leaders and reporters are now proclaiming Bismarck and surrounding had NIMBY about it so they pushed it off onto the Natives no one will mind dumping on them.
Marco likes to blame Obama –
I prefer to think of this as just another example of a President who is inclined to dither, than a cynical political opportunist seeking to make himself popular with his own constituency, rather than adhere to the principles of law and national interest. The politics of the election had impact on this – get real
“leave in the ground” will not help US EV sales. The glut in oil supply is so large globally that the price will not rebound for a very long time. Any reduction in US production will simply be met by US imports, hurting the US economy while enriching and strengthening OPEC which lost most of it’s former influence due to increased US production.
Silent – Not that simple sir – we have plenty of other oil in US . The recoverable oil in Baaken has been adjusted downwards Mate from 21 Billion barrels 10 years ago in a time of exuberant Hubris etc down to 6.5 Billion barrels of recoverable reserves with 64 % depletion rate over 4 to 5 years – some facts from the field!
Marco stating some policy ideas ( SR which have some Merit for sure)
If you want to help EV’s and the US economy, then simply increase the price of gasoline at the pump with higher taxation. The additional revenue could be used to promote clean tech, retire debt etc.
The US consumes approximately 180 billion gallons of gasoline and diesel per year. even a modest 50 cent increase would provide the US with enough revenue (and compounding revenue) to fund some truly stunning environmental or public infrastructure projects.
The additional revenue wouldn’t come at the expense of domestic energy producers, since the tax would be at the pump. Nor would it greatly affect the economy, since gasoline and diesel are at an historically low price.
Well said Silent says
MATE MARCO I like this concept above and agree with you . The failure to raise taxes during this time of low interest rates was a missed opportunity of immense proportions for America – but the Right Wing cult of tax avoidance is a chronic disease that limits Americas options and its health too. Sad but we know who the cultists are and who their cheerleaders are they are shame less and just don’t under stand real growth economics. Dumbbells come in suits also. As you have said in other Posts and you were right , we are in age of stateless rules, companies and individual’s can move money and revenues around without the traditional tax responsibility and it is taking a toll on everyone now. It’s a chronic issue.
IMO , Obama in 2010 before the Tea Baggers got going with their delusionary bs ; he should have done a huge US bond sale program for infrastructure with a tax free dividend for investors of around 2.5 % the bonds should have been sold to all little guys and big players and the sense of Patriotism would have raised Billions to build roads, bridges , water works rebuild airports etc. this worked during WW 2 Employment would have gone up at higher wages and the economic activity would have returned lots of revenue to the Feds. With low interest rates this could have been worked out but the banksters did not want to give up a lil haircut they wanted and demanded their massive bailout and both Gomers and Dems are too tethered to them. So we missed out. I find fault with him reflecting back. He still had the political wind under his wings before the tea baggers rained on everyones parade .
As I have concluded over 25 years ago the need for a long and serious debate on domestic strategic energy policy should have been debated and the trade offs agreed upon in a compromising manner. But there are no longer any great debates just made for tv shouting matches. too much pay ola moolah exchanging hands on K St and in the Finer places dark deeds do go down.
Now we have elected someone and a team that wants more trickledown economics and the uber rich and corporations will get their continued orgy of tax cuts that the nation cant afford and they don’t really need or deserve except for their own greed the only infrastructure that will get built will have a Toll on it for privatizing the profits! Such is the Path of a conflicted Nation muddling along ….pretending to the end !
Marco states his disdain for Leave it in the ground !
A modest increase in tax would serve far greater purpose than any silly “leave it in the ground” nonsense.
Silent pushes back again – Yes on tax but Leave it in the Ground is a two pronged attack – Marco where is your sense of military tactics the best way to sweep the field of the enemy is two prong or multi pronged fronts create chaos and over run the enemy.
Marco continues
Increasing consumption taxes takes political courage. The public must believe that the money raised is well spent.
Silent concurs some – You are right but since 1980 they have been told it is a Mortal sin to collect or pay taxes !
Marco – he is in good stride here!!!!
Good government takes courage and a lot of thorough planning, not seeking easy popularity.
Silent from River Bank acknowledges Marco but expresses strong convictions
Totally agree so that is why a multi pronged attack and strategy is the only way to reverse GHG and Global Warming and leave it in the Ground will drive Innovation and the tax money would pay for lots of things that would help the economy and yes it would rev up EV sales and other Innovations.
Marco we cant play on the Margins much longer , need to we get REAl and Take Decisive Actions and Be Bold & Creative
Perhaps a compromise will be worked out and we have scenes of the trumpster smoking peace pipes with the Chiefs and all the Protestors and Your Morton Cty crews and Pipeliners and Service men and he makes a deal! The pipeline reverts to a more Northern route along the existing pipeline corridors along N ND as noted and then South and East avoiding all the concentrated areas . The Natives are given the Blessings to grow Marijuana and become wholesalers to all of America . They share some of their revenues from marijusana sales with the Pipeline owners to offset some of the costs. Trumper has the FEDs throw in some money he is business friendly. And everyone is Whole again! Trump takes his cut and then he takes loaded Peace Pipes to all his foreign visits and a new World Order is Upon us All! Black Swans transform to White Swallows of Peace and Prosperity !
May we Dream On in Peace !
Its the Holiday Season Mate We Yield our time back to You ….
Silent,
Thank you for your lengthy reply.
You have provided a degree of insight into your thinking, and for that I thank you.
I suppose what disappoint me most is the lack of compassion displayed toward the sanctuary owners, whose herd or rare Bison has been largely stolen or destroyed and rare flora vandalized.
The actions were not by a profit seeking company, or rapacious government, but arrogant protestors in the name of
“environmental protection”. !
Neither you nor Craig, and to my surprise even Frank, could bring yourselves to express sympathy at the wanton destruction of many years hard work by these peaceful residents, who are also Native Americans.
I find that very sad.
(I have written to these folk, and offered whatever assistance they might find useful in rebuilding )
On a lighter note, I wish you all the best for what the politically correct call the “holiday season” and the rest of us call Christmas and New Year.
I shall be celebrating with my family and wish you all the fun of the season to enjoy the pleasure of just being alive and liveing in interesting times !
@ Marco
Dear Sir Marco – thank you for the nice Christmas Season greetings and Wishes – yes sir we have some good fun exchanging our passionate and complex positions on challenging and multi layered technical and interesting Issues. We must retain our good Humanity.
We both share a understanding that we are Indeed living in Most Interesting times.
I closed with a Christmas wish and amicable solution. Thought you might get a smile with the Deal maker Trumper solutions !!1 LOL LOL LOL
Don’t accuse Craig and Frank and me of being Insensitive to who ever these harm ed people are up there. I commend you for caring for others . I am similar. That is why I am in the Native American Indian Camp.
I am most sure that Craig and Frank are also. Frank lived and worked over seas and he continually expresses compassion and support for less fortunate peoples who ever they may be.
The only deep information is from various radio broadcasts I get and our papers which are Weak now in America. I listened to many Veterans Sunday night and again last night over the radio . I regret that I could not be there in person and stand in solidarity with the native Americans and their many different allies. I wish I could have recorded that speech by the Retired generals sons – touching to the Max Moving –
A new alliance has been formed Veterans not Chicken Hawks and there will be new Progressive Groups who will emerge stronger and ready to confront the Industrial Monster that wants to just do B A U and the hell with the future for future generations. A rally set for Dec 12th in Washington may still be on !
You did not comment on the Sardonic Humor I shared with you. We thought you might need a good laugh or too.!
The Federal and State Agencies should have done a real detailed analysis and included all stake holders and most of this could have been avoided perhaps, perhaps not?? Don’t know anymore. Process is broken over here due to extreme polarization etc.
In any case Trumpster got a early Christmas gift and its much deserved as he thought all it would take is to put on a cap made in China that says make America Great Again. Slogans. Now we see if there is any substance or has Kabookey theatre reached both new Highs and New Lows !
Now he has to go to work he wanted to be President and he is a Big Boy so lets see him Man Up at the Plate. Its Show time as they say!
Obama is crafty dude ! 5 years of Birther ism BAD Karma thrown back at the trumpster !
I deeply regret that you determine that some of us are not caring folks. Perhaps some Christmas Cheer will move your Spirit to a more accurate assessment.
When over 11,000 people turn out into the Frigid cold of ND for a cause – one must recognize that they must believe in their Casue as Just and Right to make that kind of Effort.
Its common sense or Read the Tea Leaves as they Say. Huge Movement may emerge depends on how the Judges rule and Trumpster responds etc. Interesting times as you say. Indian Chief is telling the masses to return home and get out of the cold so the situation is calming down. that is good.
Today’s Newspaper had a picture of 3 Army veterans with Battle Helmets on raising a US flag at the protest camp. Looked like Iwa Jima except they had Snow on their helmets etc. Smiling !
Veterans and Native Americans a new Union! The descendants of the oppressor class now have to deal with both , the tables or the worm may be turning in new ways !
Our tax and my leave it in the Ground plan would do wonders for the greater Cause and Goals of lowering GHG emissions and leaving the ones who follow us a better chance at a better life.
That is my Christmas Wish
I yield my time back to the Honorable Voice of Aussie Land – smiling and Joyful for the chance to still be alive and trying to make a difference no matter how small it may be at the end of the day.
You and your family and friends be Well Mate Marco Polo !
When the New Year comes perhaps you can share your new Insights into our Minds and Hearts
If its bad please dont tell Santa I am hoping for cases of Red Wine
as these Most Interesting Times require daily doses of VINO to filter through the analysis paralysis and incompetence that surrounds us
Carry on Many Blessings where ever and who ever is reading later
Silent,
I agree with you that it would come as an amazing, and pleasant surprise if Trump did prove to be a moderating negotiator.
Perhaps it worth remembering that the famous image of Iwa Jima, was a staged reproduction for propaganda purposes. The sad fate of one of the genuine flag raises, Corporal Ira Hayes a Native American Marine, became famous as a result of Peter La Farge’s ‘Ballad Of Ira Hayes’ recorded by Johnny Cash.
Americans have always loved the illusion, more than the truth.
@ Marco
Yes Mate you nailed it Americans are in Love with Illusions – it s part of our Cultural Heritage or something.
that Iwa Jima photo now that you reminded me was fabricated way back when. Maybe a War Morale booster was the justification in the time it happened or that was some ones Rationalization
I had forgotten Marco your Historical perspective is refreshing and enlightening.
Yes we love Illusions and we vote on them too we vote on Emotionalism
Thats why we go in Circles much of the time.
This afternoon the Chief of the Sioux Tribes in ND said he has given orders for all people to begin leaving the camps. And return home. Weather is getting really cold blizzard conditions etc.
He is very confident that the issue will be tied up in the Coiurts and hearings for close to a year minimum. He thinks some of the funders the banks will lose Heart and drop out so the project may be at Risk.
He said its time to go Home and recover and prepare for the next phase. He thanked all the service members and they plan some additional public actions in the future if needed.
They are going to use crews to clean up the area and minimize damage to the prairie. Some of the land was Federal land , some was Native American Land. No mention of the damaged burial grounds they claimed or some of the things you have mentioned.
The Energy Partners are demanding that Trump immediately over turn the Corp of Engineers but that is a court action and not just administrative as a real EIS was never done by the Corp. So that is a real missing detail!
So maybe this ends well for awhile
We Yield our Time to you , take care Merry Christmas and maybe those Indians in Aussie Land will get it together .