Why Are We Saying Goodbye To Consumer Choice in Energy Efficiency?
It’s hardly news that the Trump administration is doing its level damnedest to dismantle the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). And it’s easy to guess why, given the president’s chummy relationship with the entrenched energy interests, which have traditionally fought hard against EPA regulations.
But here’s a new wrinkle in all this: the stunning decision to put a spear through the EPA’s “Energy Star” program, in which appliance manufacturers provide consumers information on the power consumption of the items they’re considering for purchase. No “Energy Star” means an immediate end to consumers’ ability to choose energy efficient televisions, washers, etc.
But why? Who’s to gain from energy inefficiency? Well, as it turns out, Donald Trump himself. I hope you’ll take a moment and check this out.
This is what kleptocracy looks like, folks.
The consumer should not have choice to buy grossly inefficient products. That is why in the EU, incandescent light bulbs are no longer generally available, and building regulations are regularly tightened up for new construction, and car manufacturers have to meet ever tighter fleet average CO2 emissions. It seems Trump is going far beyond simply removing the compulsion element and actively acting against the interests of the consumer who wants to know the cost of owning appliances, homes etc.
At this rate, American products will end up being of such inferior quality to those made elsewhere, that most products made for the US will be banned from most other markets!
Wow. I hadn’t thought of that.
Re: incandescent light bulbs, you would be amused to know that the Republicans in the U.S. Congress have fought tooth and nail to keep them from being regulated out of existence. It’s as if they’re sitting on a full warehouse of them, the size of a small city.
Any attempt to deny consumers information is unconscionable. Trump needed to divest from his businesses interests before becoming president. This kind of blatant greed will (hopefully) lead to his impeachment.
Dude, I’m counting the minutes. 🙂
GARY HAS IT RIGHT – THE MARKET PLACE THAT RIGGED ALTAR OF often times False Worship in the U S . Well it is not going to be served very well by these REACTIONARY POLICIES of the TRUMPERIAN Era –
THIS IS FOLLY worth of some serious drinking and roasting sessions.
AS GARY SAYS IT WILL LEAD TO LESS SALES FOR AMERICAN MANUFACTURES over time. market share erosion less jobs less opportunity and a sure way to make america even less great in the future …carry on trumpsters and carbon heads full dark steam ahead into Failure!
One would have to be a idiot to think american manufactures will re tool their production lines to adjust to the Lunacy in these policy follies!
In the US if the sales of LED s lights continues at the rate of the past 5 years – 50 new power plants will not be built. Saving the economy billions in investment for other things – but the Carbon heads want that un needed investment to keep their Failing GIg going a while longer…
Gomer Follies may lead as Devin says to eventual Failure and exit from power if only the Minions and Deplorable’s would pay attention???
But judging from the trumpsters Saturday night rally in some red neck part of Pennsylvania Saturday they are too consumed with the No Center Ring Circus lines and false Hubris to see thru the FOG ….they seem to want More Fog …its comfortable disease to be Ignorant – Ignorance is Bliss as some one once said !
But the market is bigger than US and we will get hurt by this Folly. its up to cost conscious companies to demand energy efficient products and options. I predict they will buy Wisely despite the trumpster and his false trumpets Noise.
That “red neck part of Pennsylvania” is the state capitol. A mere 90 minutes from where I live. I am surrounded by his supporters. It is dismal. You can’t imagine what it is like to live with these people living literally right next door. There is just no understanding the scope of the problem until you do.
I deeply sympathize.
But, not to sound insensitive to your plights, I need to point out that 62 million Trump supporters have to live somewhere, and that central PA is as good a place as any.
This, btw, is why places like California, the Pacific Northwest and New England are so expensive. Not that we don’t have ignorance here, but least we don’t wallow and bathe in it. People are willing to pay extra to avoid being surrounded by bigots, war-mongers, religious zealots, etc.
Craig,
Whoa easy there ! That’s the smouldering embers of a nasty little class war you’re fanning !
These folk aren’t “ignorant rednecks”, they’re your fellow citizens and deserve a little more respect for the problems they’re enduring.
These people inherited an America you’ve been able to flee. An older, rural and industrial America, the America that once provided the America’s wealth and are now left behind.
They have borne the brunt of globalization, massive public debt, selfish neglect of immigration policies, white flight, failed government planning, losing the trade war with China etc. These are the victims of the increasingly greater divide between the rich and poor.
One of the great lies perpetrated by the affluent middle class smugly living in places like Santa Barbara etc is that the great divide in wealth is the fault of a handful of “greedy billionaires”, when in truth it’s always been fault of policies encouraging economic middle class “white flight”.
Things like the growth of internet, social media, giant shopping malls etc, has further helped destroy the feeling of commitment and belong to local, human sized communities where rich and poor alike shared common values and a commitment to improve local amenities.
If any nation should have learned the price of failing to understand the value of inclusion and persuasion when considering fellow citizens, it’s America.
I’m glad you can afford to pay extra to avoid being surrounded by bigots, war-mongers, religious zealots,etc,.
I’m glad you can afford to emerge from your privileged enclaves to take part in self-righteous castigation of less fortunate Americans striving to deal with reality. An America where just having a roof over their heads is an accomplishment, let alone solar panels.
As the price of Natural gas starts to rise, and the new administrations policies begin to take effect, Coal is making a comeback.
Investment and profitability are needed if US Coal is to develop the technology allowing the industry to restructure into “Clean(er) Coal”.
To those older industries and area’s reliant on low coast energy produced by Coal, this is the first ray of hope seen for over a decade.
The Coal industry is starting to rehire. The industry has new hope in the form of Coal carbon sequestration technology than could not only see Coal emissions reduce dramatically, but create whole new industries of valuable by-products.
It might be difficult for the people of Santa Barbara to understand, but those despised “rednecks” faith in President Trump is being confirmed as employment increases and their communities come back to life, shaking off poverty and despair. With prosperity comes the reopening of schools, health care services, community facilities and less family stress.
As these folk see it, in just three months the President has brought back cautious pride and optimism to their lives. It broke the heart of these folk when they finally realized the only reward they received for a lifetime, even generations of loyal adherence to the Democratic party was to be sneered at and called ” bigots, war-mongers, religious zealots,and rednecks”.
These quiet victims found an unlikely champion in a billionaire property developer from New York who talked with the same imperfections and language as the themselves.
He said he’d bring back prosperity, and that’s happening. More importantly, he said they mattered.
The Coal industry will never return to the boom industry it once was, but after decades of sharp decline it at least now finding a place for cautious optimism, with a growth of 15%.
It’s true some of that growth is the result of a slow down in PRC production, weather disruption of Australia’s export capacity and a spike in natural gas prices.
Natural gas will remain the preferred choice, but the success of coal carbon sequestration technology offers far greater and more practical hope.
In contrast, Bernie Saunders condemned the development of Coal Carbon sequestration technology, and advised coal mining, cement producing, steel making town to abandon these industries in favour of “Tourism, Art and craft cottage industries,and Eco-projects” .
He told the population of Logan, West Virginia whose coal mine just rehired 86 new workers and restored full time employement to the rest of the work force;
“They’re just finding investors who buy into Donald Trump’s empty promises,” he said. “It’s just Monopoly money. It’s going to go bust, and we’ll be even worse off.”
As one Coal miners wife eloquently pointed out;
” that’s why I voted for Trump. Who the hell does Saunders think he is when he says “we”? He’s never been down a mine in his life ! At least Trump never talked down to us, or took our support for granted. He came and listened and acted. Now my husband’s got his job back full time, our pre-school centre is reopening, and our mortgage is paid”.
Now, Donald Trump may not be the best President, he may not be even a good President, but to these Americans at least he’s not a self-righteous, patronizing old fool who takes their support for granted.
He doesn’t call them “Rednecks”, “Bigots”, “Gomers”,”Sheepeople” Morons or other derogatory labels, he doesn’t sneer at their lifestyles, religious affiliations,aspirations and fears.
Coal remains over 30% of America’s electricity generation. If industrial consumption is taken into consideration, the percentage is much higher.
Surely, if the negative environmental emissions from the coal industry can be minimized with new technology, it makes more sense to invest in an industry where immediate and economic improvements can produce dramatic emission reductions, rather than invest in inherently flawed renewable technologies with little capacity to significantly reduce emissions, but considerable capacity to damage the economy ?
Craig, I urge you to reach out to those ” bigots, war-mongers, religious zealots, etc.” listen to the fears that drive their less positive attitudes, discover their strengths and strive for empathy, inclusion and understanding.
Dear Sir Marco as usual you compose a articulate presentation of your positions and now you have developed a growing affection for dirty coal… cost effective carbon sequestration .what planet are you on ? ..check out that Kemper black elephant in Miss. Another delay last month $ 38 million more and the gassifiers no work!! DAH DAH DAH Just close to $ 4 billion over cost.
Does not look like a sure fire way to make America Great again what a dumb ass slogan…only a simpleton would follow that.
Maybe because you live in a country that decided to be a carbon exporter of commodities that swing up and down rather than develop more sustainable resources so you could export even more of the carbon stuff. Maybe that affects your thinking. Aussie land should be heavy duty solar, wind and some gas and as I said you can export it all at low commodity prices.
Natural Gas staying low here for awhile Gas plants are putting your lovable nukes out of business and they have driven with solar and wind help over 100,000 megawatts of coal out of business the past 10 years.
Marco the battlefield loses are not over there is another 50,000 megs of coal now in line to close in the next 5 years or so with out the Clean power Plan. All trumpet has is bandaids! Slogans …he is feeling the heat.
Why Economics! , coal cant compete with gas, wind and solar. You can cling to your Myths all you want but Facts are Real Facts not trumper Alternative twisted Facts …
Your Aussie Land Grid authority made a dumb political decision around 10 years ago related to creating some marginal market for playing around with the 50 cycle Frequency bandwidth , some greedy entrepreneur type greased some politicos and they allowed some trading to go on ….well now that you have a growing fleet of solar and wind generation the fluctuations in electric frequency are swinging too wide causing Grid instability. Your Grid is at risk of failing.
And you are concerned with a dying industry in the US that has high cost of production, more automation less workers . if coal was so good why have the owners cut off the miners pensions health benefits, those red neck gomers are too dumb and inbred to see who cuts their throats. The GOP Plantation Masters do like Mc Connell the Turtle man. the Miners are their useful pawns for exploitation over the decades Marco.
So I encourage you to do some internal mending of your own Grid before you tell us we must blindly cling to coal over here.
Real smart people and many of them corporate types like utilities are abandoning coal and only massive massive subsidies just like those for old nukes can keep some reduced level of coal in the game, very shaky deal.
There are more people working in solar and energy efficiency in California than the entire coal industry….where is all this hiring going on…Cite some specifics.
Craig just shared great Global Sales figures for all generation types and Investment too.
You seem to discount global market trends Reality – where is the Logic in that???
Now on the socio political side I find some alignment in some of what you say but it is not as black and white as you frame it. trumper is no hero he is just a CON man. while Obama was a good man , I think he did some good but he under achieved for multiple reasons , our system is broken, corrupted. He could not deliver on too much Hope and Change due to obstruction by GOP and also his timid ways and other mistakes he made.
He had to spend too much time rescuing the GOP driven economic collapse , rebuilding economy , getting us out of the failed wars
and that was a compromise too, but he never really explained what happened to the people. He should have done monthly talks w the public and brought them along, he did not cause he is too damn intellectual bubble Bias dude. he did not brag and Americans are suckers for that stuff he is too cerebral for most Americans bu thi ssmile wins them over. But he failed to control the message and that message got warped big time. So trumper exploited all this …Obama tried to be so statesmen like blah blah ; this resulted in his good not messaging or resonating to the public. The GOP media and leaders manipulated the messages and it created all this Convoluted anger.
So the gomer voters fell victim to the ECHO Chamber of LIES and Hillary reminded them of too much inside Washington insider trading – part of the problem. So she got their wrath. She got more votes but not the electoral college game and her arrogance kept her out of Michigan, Wisc. and other places and all that is her own fault. Arrogance. She lost the racist sexist red neck single issue no abortion voter though in key states and many Bernie voters did not like her .
End result trump win is tainted and not the popular vote.
But he to his credit saw a opportunity to beat her and turn all her compromises into big bad news which he did. She fell into the trap as she is an inside the beltway creature and suffers from that Blind Bubble Bias affliction. No relate to common folks but wants their votes. She stopped telling people what she would do for them and fell into trap of just attacking trump as no good . People knew that but he promised Candy!!! delivered with Pixie Dust !! so they closed off their minds.
Trump was able to not be hurt by his dark side which is actually darker than Hillary ever could be, but it did not matter . He was not a insider to Wash like her. So they fell for him and now he and his Billionaire Wall St hacks are going to hurt most working people including those that were dumb enough or mad enough to vote for the CON.
I predicted all this Marco with several of my colleagues. We agreed over good fine Crown Royal drinks. Sadly we predicted this upstage. the Trump victory over arrogance. We are seasoned in the culture wars of America. Navigated them quite well in my career.
America was just angry enough to and confused and alienated from a insider like Hillary to allow him to sneak into a win.
They turned to him because the opponent represented Inside Washington who got filthy rich while claiming to be a liberal minded leader and mis used her job at State Dept to find money for their phony pay to pay Foundation etc etc.
Hillary paid the price for her husbands dumb decision to do REPEAT
Do the GOP bidding and get NAFTA and other Corporate welfare bills passed. so after 25 years of job losses and when she needs those blue collar voters they remembered that it was Clinton who signed the bill that sent their jobs away ….they have amnesia that the GOP is the mastermind behind all these Deeds that hurt them.
But the public has Amnesia except for the leading man in all this, They forget (gomers) that the GOP wanted all these bills and more and they are the ones who have exploited the workers of America. The failed TPP was a GOMER idea that the enabler Obama picked up as he too is some form of peace seeking Globalist . Bernie and Trump were both against it and it is dead. Which is good.
A simple reading of the bills in Trade and Banking and Taxation policies that originated in the GOP think tanks would result in mass incarceration if the real facts came out. Economic Hit men abound in America and they fly mostly GOP but some DEM flags.
these are some American facts as you seem to buy into the False narrative that all theres people were wronged by DEM party when they were not.
As for not enforcing Immigration Marco The Grade B actor pretending to a president Reagan the original buffoon, he let corporate america and the corporate heads of the GOP to NOT Enforce the Enforcement provisions of the 1987 Simpson Mazzoli immigration bill that had employer fines for hiring illegal workers. the GOP and the corporations wanted to use immigrants to bust Unions with cheaper wage workers which they continue to do to this day. FACTS .
Mr Simpson now in retirement after a few drinks well he tells the sordid tale of GOP deceit and dereliction of duty. they allowed the flood to grow that is the real story Marco.
You promote false narratives with good articulation like most of the GOP does sweet words but opposite affect; but I take the time to rebuke your false narratives..
Until financial limits are placed on politics the rampant corruption will not stop but grow. Both parties need a purge and we need a new political class to come upon the scene. Clinton needs to leave the scene and let go, go bake cookies for her grandchildren be normal again! LOL LOL . They are not liked as they deceive themselves into blindly under estimating the pulse of American people. Their time is passe.
Already the trump lie machine trys to pin the blame for his failing presidency on Obama. And Obama is gone and he is damn Popular . Real popular. These left behind people since 1980 been pulling away from main line Dems for a quilt of cultural reasons too many to list.
A better candidate from the DEMs or Bernie would have derailed the CON man, Trumpers mouthpiece Kelly Anne Conway is on record for saying many of their voters were Bernie first types ;he scared them more than Clinton they knew how to disgrace her and they did a real good job of it. See I am objective. I cede to the Devil his do when appropriate.
And that is the point Marco your entire Post is not objective. Your claims of a coal revival or trump and people having this Bond, yes there is a bond sick people like other sick people. Deploreables is a fitting term for many of these so called angry voters – sociologists and psychologists have printed much illumination into their convoluted patterns of political allegiance.
And you are free to curse me and others for our labels but I am not one of those in a rich enclaves I actually live around enclaves full of rich GOP types who only voted for Trump for the promise of lower taxes on the rich. They voted for self interest not the country s best interest. that is the plain truth of the matter. They ignored their own values in raising their children and honoring their marriages, their so called christian righteous churches Wall La etc etc for the allure of more bucks $$4 greed begets more greed.
I interact with working class gomer types and get along fine as I know how to show respect and stay away from politics . show good values and it check mates them into just getting along. Just listen to their nonsense and shallow claims of victim-hood. . And laugh inside in a SAD way at the poor thangs !
back to the Rich
Listening to their well coiffured wife’s complain ( expressing levels of guilt) in the restaurants about Trump as they are embarrassed and dont know what to tell their daughters! but daddy is greedy and wants more tax cuts so he can be fatter…play more golf etc.
You are making wild a….s claims about American Electorate you need to rethink this stuff. A little bit of knowledge kind sir is Very Dangerous! Indeed !
.
As you said Quite well months ago You said who ever wins will be drinking from many TOXIC Chalices! that you were right on ! keep that in Mind mate.
The GOP has always been conducting CLASS WAR on working and middle class people and exploited minorities. The extreme portions of the trumpets plans will result in Real Class Struggles going forward mark my words.
If Trumpet was good for America he would not be undermining the good impacts of Energy Efficiency. Shows how intellectually and morally bankrupt he really is and only fools would fall for this False narrative
Excuse the length folks but must respond to these False Narratives on American Affairs and energy markets that are Over the Top !
VIVA Energy Efficiency and Renewable s and let the chips Fall as they are Falling !!!
Brian so you live in the Belly of the Beast ….Be Strong and dont drink the Koolaid …..
Too many minions in US have or are suffering from some level of intoxification…I drive in some deep RED areas of NM and Texas and the level of ignorance among st the natives is beyond the fact this is 2017 and we have had so called decent education and more folks supposedly went to college or some form of advanced training.
The politics of ignorance is a interesting phenomenon . Worthy of serious discussion beyond its impact on energy or environmental policy.
I over hear the laments and frsutrations of the laid off oil field workers in the coffee cafes as Itravle….they complain and think some Liberal group has taken their job away…they dont get it that the drilling co are frantically trying to reduce drilling costs so they can get the profit out of 4 45 or less barrel of oil .
they dont complain about the automation the drilling co are doing the reduction in produced water and its jobs , drivers. they also dont complain yet or maybe they do not certain about the large number of immigrants who the oil co are now hiring even i this rage about a Wall !!! a smoke screen fols ! another corporate GOMER smokescreen — to shield th ebig corp who hire illegally and fire american workers.
Dont hear the complaints as these ignorant minions are just not Savy as to who is really hurting them. dont understand market forces… they are so confused …poor thawngs !!!!! but they all got their guns and their pickup trucks and their ball caps and their ignorance. Lots of it.
little has changed since my youth …we once thought red necks would die off….but the kids are just as brainwashed. Its a cult.
All around the SE part of NM over 1,200 megawatts of new wind is being built keeping some employed and they are all trumpers the workers . he hates wind but they take the wind money !!!
the flawed human condition lives on and on Brian take care over there those folks being Played big time will need some friendship in the future.
Things in Australia are not so good as Marco would have us believe. For example, in Sydney, the public transportation system is in real trouble because of failure to maintain the train system properly. People concerned with social justice have pointed out the ghastly way in which refugees are treated, not that we in the U.S. can claim to be virtuous in that regard.
At least one thing in Oz has been done right. In many areas, households are provided with 3-phase power which results in more efficient air conditioning systems.
Frank,
Sydney is not Australia anymore than Los Angeles is the USA. Sydney is a huge fast developing city which grew accidental and largely piecemeal without much coordinated planning.
The Urban train system is extensive and is currently undergoing a $30 billion extension. The new facility will add 31 stations and 66km of metro rail in addition to 30km track under Sydney Harbour and through the centre of the city.
The entire network is being modernized and upgraded in time to accommodate new rolling stock design to operate on the new system.
Your information would appear to be sourced from complaints by the unions at the phased privatization of train service and maintenance.
Melbourne Australia has the largest public transport system in the world, and one of the safest and efficient.
Australia has one of the most successful and generous refugee programs in the world ! The nation has a long history of welcoming and successful integrating refugees.
Australia does not welcome queue jumping, illegal migrants, who jeopardize themselves and others involved in the dangerous ‘people smuggling” trade organized by criminal gangs, resulting in the deaths of thousands of women and children.
“Those interested in social justice” , have no thought for the thousands who perish, or for those genuine refugees who unjustly sit waiting in camps for years longer, while illegal economic migrant pay to break the law and usurp the place of the law abiding.
Where is the concern for their “justice” ?
The term “refugee” can’t be extended to anyone who just decides they’d prefer living somewhere else !
Australia’ border protection policies have proved effective and just.
I have been wondering if an organization like the AEEE could take over the ENERGY STAR program until we had a sane president in office who can bring it back under the governments wing.
In fact ENERGY STAR is a good program that has helped advance energy efficiency and continues to do so. Some of my window suppliers have sent emails stating that they will continue to offer ENERGY STAR rated windows even if ENERGY STAR ceases to exist.
Just as the car manufacturers build cars that comply with California’s more stringent regulations, manufacturers ought to see that improving energy efficiency is just good business and a good way to stay competitive.
bruce if they pahse out energy star your idea od AEEE as a vehicle to disseminate info has some merit. but I suggest that they should try to align with a National Group like ASHRAE who has extensive reach both Domestically and globally to a degree. Already has acceptance – they look for partnerships I am sure the two could do a good job and make the program work even better.
I think it has been good for America and I saw the beginning of the Energy star program from my former electric utility career days back in the day.
Many companies are going to continue to do good things even if the reactionary anti efficiency crowd tries to undermine the progress that has been made. We aint going back.
Happily, though they say they are de-funding the ENERGY STAR program, the funding bill that just passed extends it for another year!
Bruce that is good news . Maybe more reasonable minds still wield some stability to the oars of things .
Texas actually is starting to upgrade basic building envelope insulation and equipment performance with a new code that is a good improvement over the status quo.
To over come the self serving interests of cheap first cost obsessed developers and builders in the current political landscape is Indeed a breath of Sanity.
The same usual suspects who employ volumes of undocumented workers yet scream for border controls while laughing all the way to the Bank are being dragged kicking and complaining into the modern Era. So some energy efficiency progress moves forward in these parts.
The linked-to article ranked buildings by energy efficiency. Although that’s interesting, it does not provide really useful information.
Suppose that the most energy efficient building were 5% more energy efficient than the least energy efficient building and the buildings were ranked by energy efficiency. In that case, the rankings would be almost meaningless.
I don’t doubt that some of Strumpet’s buildings are very energy inefficient, but merely from rankings, we have no way to determine the actually differences in energy efficiency. Some statistics are less meaningful than they could be.
Regarding making incandescent light bulbs unavailable because they are energy inefficient, that legislation fails to consider that many incandescent bulbs are used so little that the efficiency doesn’t matter. Some even average less than one minute of use per day. In that case, the energy used to manufacture the bulbs is more important than the amount of energy they use. I use incandescent bulbs in my closets because the amount of energy they use is too small to matter. In some of my closets, the bulbs may be used only once only every few days and then less than a minute at a time. I have a shed outside that is rarely entered during winter. Using LED lights there might save as much as one cent per year.
I would like to see information on how much energy is used to manufacture an incandescent light bulb, a compact fluorescent light, and an LED light, all of comparable light output.
Craig,
I support the concept of energy ratings as consumer information. Some independent organization must authenticate any efficiency rating program if consumers are to rely on the veracity of such a program.
Frank makes a valid point, energy rating must be appropriate, and relevant.
I find the accusation the President ordered the funding cut out of self-interest far fetched and absurd. These funding cuts are part of a general slimming down of an exceedingly bloated and stifling bureaucracy which in many cases believed it was no longer accountable to any higher authority than themselves
Energy Star and other “quality assurance” consumer information programs should assist US manufacturers against poorer quality imports.
Consumer decisions regarding real estate rarely include ‘energy ratings’. For buyers of refurbished apartments in expensive 100 year old inner city buildings, energy efficiency is not a priority.
As a general principle, pertinent product information should be provided in an ‘easy to read’ format so consumers can make informed decisions. It goes without saying the information should be accurate, impartial and not based on ideological considerations.
While the accusations of self-interest against the President may be an hysterical over-reaction, cutting funds to useful and popular programs is a not prudent government.
It’s possible the program could be continued by another government department more economically.
My suggestion would be for the government to engage and fund the US Better Business Bureau (BBB),to operate the program within a regulatory framework.
The BBB could operate the program a lot more economically, and call upon government and private resources to expand the program and make it even more effective.
Frank & Marco
As usual you make good points Frank that 3 phase power to each home is a good idea .
thanks for stating some not so impressive things about Australia’s cold shouldered policies re Immigrants and refugees. I understand their desire to not import poverty etc. They may not want the issues that Europe now has but there are kinder and more humane ways to deal with these issues.
But perhaps they could use Leverage their market power with carbon exports to some of the countries they sell their carbon to and get those countries to Step up and take care of their populations.
That takes leadership – states man-ship and the like. Creative Humanistic capitalism probably asking for too much there ??/
!!1
Perhaps they the Aussies like many Americans have grown soft and selfish and self centered on them selves. I have read how cruel they have been to some hapless refugees and take them to islands but dont have all the details.
But there is hope Frank the Aussies made some mistakes with their Grid and their falling under the allure of Neo liberalism with the economics of the Power Grid…as I pointed out in the last Post.
The AEMO the national grid for Aussie land hired a New York lady who has worked on the NY REV program to come in and show them how to enter the modern World.
Get ready Marco and Lawrence more renewable s coming with Gas to firm it all up. The new chief is Audrey Zibel and she says Clinging to the Old Energy Business Model is Insane.
She has just arrived but she has big plans for Aussie Grid.
so I look forward to more posts from Marco on what he likes or dislikes but RE has come home to roost in Aussie Land. To make it work the GRID must be Re worked. That is the real issue. Hopefully the Aussies will take the cure and modernize their operations so all can benefit. Repeat all Benefit.
2nd gift Marco I WILL SEND SOME RECENT EIA COST VALUES FOR DIFFERENT GENERATION TYPES. SAD TO REPORT THAT COAL AND CC COAL IS THE MOST EXPENSIVE ON THE PLANET. BAR NONE.
I TRIED TO IMPORT A NICE TABLE CHART BUT THE 2 GREEN SITE NO ALLOW THE IMPORT.
Your wonder Boy over here trumpet has assigned the dunce from texas ricko perryo the texas red neck to do studies on how he can somehow justify baseload coal and throw a bone at nukes too.
perryo doodges the obvious conflict of states rights versus the FEDs. perrypo has been one of those dumb states rights guys and hates the Feds now he is a FED so the Boots are on the other foot he shrugs as he now is trying to find a way to use the FEDs to tell the states what to do….
Like tell them that RE Portfolio Goals are not good so Burn coal and nukes and find market mechanisms to cover over FOR SUBSIDIES CONSERVATIVES ADVOCATING MORE SUBSIDIES ….
These things run counter to GOP conservative mouth speak but now they are doing these things to cover up for their agenda .
Marco is it any Wonder that many of us call them Rednecks , and dumb, and undesirables the GOP leaders and their flawed energy policies deserve to be called GOMERS as they Are! hypocrites as well and their anti Energy Efficiency plans are stupid.
Close to 3 million people in America work in RE or Energy Management , Design, Energy Efficiency .
And guess what Marco much of our Grid can handle more Renewable energy than once was thought. Forward thinking engineers and good technology. Yes it will cost money but not as much as your Black Elephant Coal Capture follies !
You teed off on Craig and me and others so I am pushing back with Sicilian Energisto !
A Woman from NY will run aussie land GRId folks how Poignant !!
Silent,
I always enjoy the wild enthusiasm and breath of topic in your passionate rants ! (that’s meant as a compliment).
I don’t agree with your idea that yelling at people “you’re wrong, I’m right, you’re a moron, redneck, evil,” etc , is an effective way to change peoples minds or gain support.
In my opinion, it’s far better to try and understand their problems and fears while examining the efficacy of your own beliefs.
However, here’s some factual information for you to consider, fact without opinion or speculation.
1) Australia doesn’t really have a ‘national grid’ in the physical sense of one united grid. The “National Grid” is a coordinating body and market mechanism servicing four main State based independent grids and some small specialist ‘grids.
These “grids” are:
WA: South West Interconnected System (SWIS)
WA: North West Interconnected System (NWIS)
NT: Darwin-Katherine Electricity Network
Qld, NSW, ACT, Vic, SA, Tas: National Electricity Market (NEM)
Australia possesses over 1,050,000 km of distribution grid and 65,000 km of transmission grid in operation one of the largest interconnected electricity markets in the world.(largest per capita).
Australian power generation is source by :
Wind & Solar 6%
Hydro 7%
Natural gas 22%
Coal 63%
Other 2%
Over the last 20 years Coal has declined while gas and renewable have grown. In the last five years the rate of Wind and Solar adoption has slowed while Natural and coal seam Gas have continued to grow steadily.
In the USA, Coal generation has declined over the last 20 years, especially with the dramatic growth in Gas fired generation.
Currently, the percentage of Coal fired generation remains steady at 30%. The US DOE and IEA estimates that coal will power between 2O-25 % of US generation at least until 2050.
India and Africa are becoming the biggest customers for coal fired generation. While global consumption of coal grew by only 0.4 per cent, India’s consumption increased by 12% !
Globally, Coal produces 42% of the world’s electricity.
It’s difficult to obtain accurate global assessments (counties like China tend to misrepresent) but it’s reasonable to estimate 20% of global electricity generation is renewable.
However, what is not good news is:
Traditional biomass 9%
Modern biomass, geothermal and solar heat 4%
Hydro 3 %
Wind, solar, 2%
Tradition and even modern bio-mass can be very environmentally harmful.
Obviously with only 2% of 20 % the potential for growth of Wind and Solar is very good.
But it’s also obvious the biggest emission reductions can be achieved from reducing Coal fired emissions.
This can be achieved one of two ways, realistically or unrealistically.
Unrealistically, we can demand the world switches from Coal to Wind and Solar and wring our hands in lament when this doesn’t occur, (while telling each other it’ll happen any day now),
Or
Realistically, we can encourage further development of clean(er) coal technology. Both the USA and India have commercial scale projects producing useful by production from coal carbon sequestration.
It shouldn’t be case of either/or , but encouragement of both renewable and clean(er) coal technology.
I can sympathize with the plight of communities devastated by the closure of coal mines. Your lack of sympathy for these (your fellow Americans) is a form of bigotry. These folk become refugees in their own country.
Just writing them of as “redneck hill billies” is ungrateful. These people are the descendants of the people who made America a great nation.
If President Trump has brought back a little hope, dignity and feeling of not being so forgotten, then it’s just plain churlish to sneer at their change in circumstance.
The coal industry will never regain the position of “King Coal” as it was in the late 19th and early 20th century, but it’s not finished yet and any new technology to reduce it’s environmental impact should be encouraged.
I’m not exactly sure why you are gloating about Audrey Zibel’s appointment, or it’s significance. Most modern nations and organizations head hunt internationally for executives.
As I explained to Frank, there is a difference between a “hapless refugee’ and a criminally inclined, opportunistic illegal migrant !
These illegal migrants are not “refugees”.
Mate Marco –
thanks for the nice energy resource info not bad. Aussie have a nice resource mix so they can free themselves of carbon with out regressing. You need to pull back from coal faster.
your big Indian customer will be good for awhile but dont get comfortable as they are rapidly changing the direction of the boat and fuel use as is china man. Will take time. the volume will go down and many nations in Africa will break away from the centralized generating model as well; most countries are waking up to the concept of modular expansion.
Both India and China To their credit they will also get some of these newer nuclear units and diversify more.
I mentioned the new head of the GRID AEMO , sure you know the exact layout of the Grid there but they are the leading controlling agency. They will make some changes . Read a long interesting interview about Ms Audrey Zibel and she has some good modern ideas. Hopefully her style meshes with your country s real needs and the entrenched interests dont stop needed change.
Work on your frequency issue. so you can adsorb more Abundant solar resources.
Marco I regret that I cant import a real nice chart that shows clearly that the carbon sequestration coal units are the Most expensive of all the competing generation types and it is by wide margin. Not in the Money kind sir.
And in the US there is only 1 plant in ND old technology too. I forget its name ( Great Plains synfuels ?)but it was built in the Jimmy Carter days and it sends CO2 North to Canada for a long time . Sells residuals too. and generates power for Basin Electric cooperative G & T done work there.
all the others have closed before finished or were shut down due to poor performance. the legacy of failure in clean coal short cycles is long and in the Billions & Billions. Now there is the failing Kemper Plant I have mentioned a few times – google it and read the ongoing Failure.
Around 5 years ago I took several copies of three different coal sector publications on the virtues and the promises of Clean coal etc etc about 10 lbs of nice full color paper. Well I threw them out into recycling; perhaps the paper made is used to wrap solar panels now !!!
so re think your forecast for great expansion of coal it is not a happening thing. More energy Efficiency will do wonders.
I have worked with many different miners and some I liked but I dont have to feel for them as much I used to as too many just want to be redneck hill billys and take great pride in being or acting dumb. They vote for dumb people who keep them poor etc etc. they cling to falsehoods long after the falsehood has been disproved over and over. talk about co dependency ….its rampant.
They tend to be very prejudiced against lots of things and tend to be racist and I could go on.
L listened to some of the coded hate distrust speech lectures in their churches on sundays when I was travelling and I wanted to step out of my comfort zone. try to understand the confusion and the bias etc. see I have a Marco Polo explorer in me my genes.
Like many of my progressive Friends we have fatigue with these rural types that buy into all the Myths and Lies of the man. Then they get exploited by the man themselves and go back for more.
Lots of people work hard I can take you to see Hispanics who grow food and work real hard and they dont want to remain dumb. They were exploited and still are and its wrong even though I dont think we can keep taking so many in as we dont have enough jobs for our own people now. Times changed.
But the real issue is to fix the poor countries where all these folks come from and that takes real work and investment and we dont even fix our roads ??? our leaders dont seem to want to do that. We dont even fix our own poor inner city ghettos. so guess we just dreaming on,…here… Many of the latin immigrants they respond to intellectual stimulation not suppress it.
As for the miners I say give them aid etc but dont let their ignorance run our politics. They dangerous. so I rest on it. Hell bells I shared a couple of great concepts recently on new industry for them – pumped hydro in old mines for power and use solar to grown food indoors and create a garden year round food exporting business for the people . Be a good thing for local economies and do some energy efficiency there too.
As for the refugees or the other class you mentioned I thought I was respectful to Australia’s lack of desire to just import poverty like the United States has done.
I dont think Frank was being out of line as there have been stories in the papers and the media specials that depict some rough treatment over there. Now we probably dont get the entire story so perhaps you could shed some light on that.
My views on refugees are to be Humane as one can. however I dont believe in Open borders and things must be done orderly or things get out of control and there are then many negative consequences.
And good intentions must be tempered with a sound Plan…something that was not done in the States. Now we have people splitting into different camps, polarization and that is not good.
Greedy industries and pandering politicians combined to create a multi layered social/economic/ cultural / political humanitarian / criminal quagmire that rages to this day. Quite expensive as well. Former Sen Simpson told me over whiskey how deeply disappointed he was in reagans failure to stand up to the greedy Union busting corporations who got him to NOT ENFORCE our new employer fines in 1988. FACT. the rest is just the consequences of broken policy.
yet those ignorant rural types laud and worship the image and myth’s of Reagan to this day….so it goes.
The US created much of this with bad reactionary geo political / military mis- adventures in Latin america and wasting our time with the Middle East for way too long. We should have decent policies that John Kennedy started before he got killed. then Vietnam ate us up and distracted us.
Now ISIS and others have us going around chasing our Tail…to no end!
Now we have blow-back into our land. Unity is needed and better respect for sure but right now we are getting Polarization across the Land and the messenger in the white House has a bad message. I am not duped by his false words of support to miners it is a Ruse a phony one.
Aussies are lucky that you are island and that reduces some for the issues we have.
The trumpet administration is making some energy policy moves that under mine many of the good gains we have made in Energy Efficiency and new technology etc. It is a carbon interests last gasps as the growth for those sectors is no longer going to be what it once was we are in Transition and will take time but it has more than begun. Sit back and sip good wine watch things change. The trump era will not last long most folks feel.
we shall see
Get your nuclear SMR friends going so they can make the timeline to not have to contend with a rabid mad public upset over excessive decommissioning costs that LOOM….your Sicilian debater looksat things strategically and foresees new barriers emerging.
Must beat the timeline to be a happening thing for them to be part of the Mix. But the coal gig , they got real engineering challenges that cost billions billions.
I am going to take the time to send the figures from the EIA since I cant import the charts .
Marco my point in sharing them is to show you that I am not disagreeing with you just for the sake of disagreement but to Illustrate that the economics are not there and the future is going to be a RE and GAS and Energy Efficient one and throw some batteries in there, YES THERE is room on the stage for SMR s but time MORE ticking RAPIDLY DOWN so get with the program.
13 years ago I thought we w take coal and make gasoline out of it but the evolution and rapid development of the EV and the low cost of solar electricity make EV s much better transportation option for fuel going forward. So fossil fuel will flat line out the way it is….later on …
keep the lights on over there You have Lovely country.
Hi Silent,
I’ve always been impressed by your tenacity, and willingness to accept new information.
I’m typing this after a long dinner at my club. I decided I’d drunk too much to bother going home, and better stay the night.(However, can’t sleep).
Australia’s grid is fiercely controlled by the States so Audrey Zibel has her work cut out try and make any sense out of parochial interests.
The plight of refugees is truly tragic. There is no upside for any solution. For those foolish enough to be caught in the system, the consequences are truly horrific.
The government solution, although effective, is a very bad policy, but it happens to be the only policy that avoids even worse results.
Very sad.
As I said, Coal will never return to be the dominant energy resource, but it still plays an important, if diminishing, role.
If new Coal sequestration technology removes 90% of carbon emissions from coal, the environmental benefits are enormous, but if I trebled Wind and Solar, I’d’ve only improve things by 3% !
Ultimately. we can agree that Coal is yesterday’s fuel, but just not yet. (Aw, hell I like blue grass music and good sipping whiskey, with a little ‘White lightning”.)
As for the President, i try to be fair. He’s not my kinda President, but simply reviling every move he makes isn’t helpful.
Interestingly, Australians seem more comfortable with Trump than the US. Probably because we are use to trying to decipher what our public figures mean !
We also palce little faith in the media. Craig loves the leftist UK Guardian newspaper.
In response to the news the Queen had accepted her 96 year old husband’s wish to lessen his workload from 311 days per year to 72, the Guardian’s commented that the Queen was tired of his gaffes, and felt him failing in his duty. ( The 91 year old Queen averages 334 days per year, and over 483 official engagement).
If the Guardian staff worked 1% as hard, they wouldn’t need to beg!
Greetings Marco , hey mate thanks again for sharing more insights into Aussie land.
I agree with you that ms A Zibel may have her political work cut out for herself.
Many of her ideas may be too centralized planning concepts from NY.
I think they are good but ideas have to be sold slowly and if the Grid is run by separate groups like you describe then that makes it more challenging.
a national Energy Plan is a good thing but it takes complete buy in and vested interests must let go of some of their self serving parochial interests and find some level of consensus. so unless there is a sense of urgency it is challenging . All plans need consensus.
Too much Of Obama’s program who I liked alot required much more consensus that he and his Dem allies ever could get. I dont want to go off into political never never land but the lack of consensus in US is a Achilles heel to our success in energy.
America gets too fragmented policy as we got so Polarized and I am somewhat part of that dynamic in my GOMER rants but please understand I been on Front lines of many of these issues for close to 40 years and after awhile one just draws some lines in the Sand . For Noble reasons I hope you understand.
Now w the trumperian era some is being un done and I think that is Craig’s point and I share that point as do many others do as we see the upside.
You in your way probably see some of it too but you add your perspective. Appreciate that now you open up after our challenge on coal and I see that you do see the end of the line for coal . And you seem to accept that it is a fuel we need to phase out over time.
carbon sequestration and clean coal are nice concepts but after many years the engineers just can make it work at a affordable cost. Maybe that effort should be put into other sectors.???
Thanks for sharing that side of your perspective. Now I see that you have more options in your plans . We need more Energy efficiency as it is cost effective, reduces demand does more for pollution control locally than most other options. Also creates lots of work opportunities and all advanced nations have the need for more meaningful Work for the people as automation is taking its toll on our labor markets and the economy etc . yes it improves some things but it also hurts labor and spending.
A sword that cuts both ways.
Hopefully the AEMO and the various State Grids get to work on their Frequency Issues so that power quality is maintained so you can accept more Renewable Variable Power.
if you could explain the Grid there it would be interesting to know and learn as we have some Issues in the states .
All our comrades in Green Power must realize that grid enhancements and expenditures are needed for the Transition and they will be significant, turning a blind eye away from reality , is not good policy nor is it reality based policy. Greenie Weeenie stuff and that is not good.
Marco let us know what Aussie are going to do and what about SMR technology is the Aussie government going to get more aggressive in that area ??
Aussie land has ores why no nuclear activity?
Where is Lawrence hanging out , I shared some answer’s to his question on rising costs?
later on
Silent,
” Aussie land has ores why no nuclear activity? ”
Two reasons. 1) abundant coal and gas 2) Fierce opposition from a broad leftist-alliance and only a small industrial manufacturing sector which until recently was well served by cheap power.
The political will to develop Australia vast Thorium deposits doesn’t exist. Uranium mining investment remains risky as government policy and political support can easy change.
Marco,
It is truly bizarre that you have omitted nuclear power from your post. Perhaps the following link will be a sufficient correction:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/china-nuclear-power.aspx
Frank yes I wondered the same thing as Marco s replies have omitted the nuclear options …. Aussie land has some good ores still.
that would help them exit coal burning faster but they could still export as that market will run along for a few more decades until more countries make the transition to cleaner fuels etc.
i will go back and read more of the link you shared.
You take care up there in NM lovely place you are in. the best place I ever lived. Fond memories of that nice balanced town. take care Frank
Frank,
Not bizarre at all, the contest of my comparisons was Coal v Wind-Solar (renewables)In that context only renewable energy, Coal and gas were relevant.
Within the Australian context, Australia generates no nuclear power.
Had I been addressing the wider question of future environmentally beneficial power generation, I would naturally include advanced nuclear power as a very important component.
Frank Marco sums up Aussie Lands limitations.
they don’t have political will right now nor the demand from a large manufacturing sector etc. Makes sense.
but they do have some Ore fields did business with Canadian / Aussie owned mining co and they always boasted of the resource there but not much local demand.
Marco thanks – the abundance of coal gave it a preferred political or lets say insider s position to be the base load.
I can see how it must be difficult politically to with draw from that or shrink it fast.
So you have a strong leftist element voting block ….
would you say Aussie Land is as divided as the US .
Do you have strong energy efficiency programs by the various State Governments and do they encourage better design and building codes?
I knew that the residential solar sector was real strong for awhile as you have great solar resource over there.
With your gas ( is it all coal seam gas? or do you have any deep conventional gas deposits as well ? The system should be able to bak up solar quite nicely so GRID issues should not be a big deal.
The AEMO may go to 5 minute intervals for Frequency controls and refine the volatility of the volts / amps that way . they currently use 30 minute intervals but with Variable power coming onto the Grid they see a need to refine things and close the wide band width of the fluctuations.
those of us that are technicians and Planners and want the est practice and critical path taken must learn about the inner workings of a country or area before twe foster our creative solutions upon the masses as there may be entrenched reasons why things are the way they are.
Now of course that does not mean we back down from doing what we believe to be right but we need to be sensitive. Also knowing the reasons the money power supports certain policies is a key Ingredient to having any chance at real change.
so thanks Marco for sharing more about Aussie land structure and resources.
Frank I know you like nuclear so hope that the SMR fellas get their act together and get some deployments before 2030 2035 and the Huge massive Decommissioning bills $$$$ come due . got to get positive traction with the public going before those Black Swans come soaring into the kitchen table discussions.
I would pay attention to the Westinghouse Bankruptcy discussions with the So company and Toshiba etc. It appears that they may leave So co holding the bag for the unfinished plants as their finances are real dire Straits . Toshiba is splitting off 6 other divisions to protect them from further finance damage.
Nuclear follies plays on ! and the Sages sound the alarms .
Silent,
Until the the early 1990s, each Australian state had a State monopoly electricity commissions controlling all aspects of power generation.
In the 1990’s these governments began to privatize various asset in order to pay down massive debt, recapitalize loss making enterprises, promote competition, customer choice and provide cheaper electricity.
State monopolies has produced very antiquated, inefficient and moribund power generation and the national grid was virtually non existent.
Traditionally, Australian politics is fairly centrist, and social divisions are not as great as the US.
The failure of government initiatives tend to relate more to poor planning, administration, and lack of effective supervision, than corruption or malice.
Australia is a large exporter of natural gas as well as developing coal seem gas. The success of the export market has driven up local prices and even created a lack of supply.
The South Australian state government pursued a policy of encouraging only wind and solar for largely ideological motives. Unfortunately, despite losing most of the biggest manufacturing enterprises which left the state, South Australia has found itself reliant on importing Victorian coal generated power.
Any disruption to the supply of Vic coal power leaves the SA without power. In recent years, the SA government has been frantically trying to rectify this problem with hydro-projects, battery storage etc.
In general, like the US, Australian power generation has always been a bit of a shambles and reflected the competitive nature and vast differences between the states.
There needs to be more energy Verification and Validation reporting done so that good actual performance bench marking data for sectors can be had. this would serve as good guide to Developers and Architects and those engaged in trying to build more sustainable structures which do have enormous energy savings and cost savings potential.
that would help make energy Star or Advanced energy Economy or ASHRAE efforts more productive.
ASHRAE might a good replacement if the anti Federal agency choirs are too strong. ASHRAE has developed several levels of energy audits that allow owners and operators to have great flexibility in assessing energy usage and water usage etc. so there are tools out there. ASHRAE includes both American GAS assoc and American Refrigeration Institute in their efforts and program so they cover a Wide Net! based on Real world engineering – operational performance not just theory.
The Green building council is finally coming down from the Pearly Tower and admitted that Energy usage Verification and measurement efforts must be stepped up to make the LEED efforts more meaningful and effective.
Anyone with a clue knows we need a data base of energy efficient information for all sectors it must be more complete and be use able and provide real guidance to the market.
Marcopolo,
On one of my trips to Sydney, in about 1998, I visited the Power House Museum. One of the exhibits was a reciprocating steam engine which until about 1952 was used to generate electricity. I was amazed that such antiquated and inefficient equipment was in use that late since for power generation steam turbines had decades before replaced reciprocating steam engines in other parts of the world.
Perhaps Oz has since upgraded to more modern standards.
There are a few niche situations where a reciprocating steam engine might even now be justified. Small steam turbines below 1 MW are not readily available, so if you have lots of available biomass, a modest electrical load, and a need for lots of heat as well as electricity, then a reciprocating steam engine might fit the bill.
Gary – that is a good example of how certain load conditions and end use needs ( waste heat lead designers to use Vintage technology like Steam I C engines.
Increasingly in the global market place Internal combustion engines run by gas with and with out co gen of heat are being deployed as a utiltiy supply type of power palnt.
the load load, high load fast ramp and modulating power outputs capability fit nicely into the emerging new smaller units in banks that aggragte up to desired power needed.
these can be used to supplement aand firm up renewable variable sources. also in co gen applications.
The emissions curves are better than traditional turbines in low and medium power. they also have a comparable power curve across low to full load so they give larger trubines a run for the money.
Utilities that are adding large numbers of Renewable s are finding that they tie up less capital by installing several smaller IC s rather than install 1 – 100 meg CT that end up with capacity factors below 20 %.
The conserve Capital and maximize system and unit flexibility.
Large industrial users who are turning to CHP applications are also a growing sector. Europe does more of this than US but it is spreading out now here.
Many colleges and other Institutional end users who want to do solar are finding out that if they install some form of CHP then they get the waste heat hot water they need and also firming power to back up the solar. This is how they reduce peak demand charges which are high in the States. Then they actually realize real economic savings from the solar systems.
So some form of IC units should have a growth stage going forward
I am sure UK is seeing these in CHP settings. They can get over 65 % efficiency and more depends on configuration. GE has a Turbo model now that is hitting 90 % thermal efficiency in Co Gen mode. So that is fuel cost efficient etc.
As Buckminister Fuller once said Small is Beautiful , bigger is not always better ! he was a Green thinker long before his time A True Sage!
Fundamentals for some technologies dont change that radically w time.