Optimism in the Wake of Trump’s Victory
President Trump. Wow, it hurts just to type those words. Readers hoping for an upbeat take on the presidential election will have to look elsewhere, for instance, to the Natural Resources Defense Council, which wrote this morning:
Shock and disappointment. Like you, that’s how all of us here at NRDC are feeling after witnessing last night’s election results. Hillary Clinton, a climate champion, lost. Donald Trump, who embraces fossil fuels, has vowed to roll back the Paris accord and calls climate change a hoax, has won. Feeling shell-shocked is an appropriate response. But we will not let that shock linger or, worse yet, turn to despair.
We are going to transform it into concrete, planet-affirming action. Know this: NRDC will fight for our environment, for our climate, and for our shared clean energy future — harder than we ever have fought before.
I’m sure the NRDC–and most of the 200K other groups on this planet dedicated to environmental and social justice–will, in fact, continue to fight. I also hope 2GreenEnergy readers will try to keep their chins up and do what they can to prevent the most powerful nation on Earth from propelling itself and the rest of the world full-bore into eco-catastrophe.
My personal viewpoint, as I’ve been expressing it for 40 years, is that the prevalent trends in the US, as exemplified by Trump’s victory, are all part of the denouement of free market capitalism, i.e., the many facets of what happens when a society worships nothing but money. For example, in its frenzy for profit:
• The media loses all sense of morality, manufactures a president out of a con man, who then aggressively moves to limit the media’s capacity to criticize him.
• All semblance of concern for our environment disappears, providing the fossil fuel industry full power to choke and bake our planet.
• The quality of education disintegrates to the point that huge masses of people are totally ignorant of the history of world fascism. They accept unquestioningly the notion that foreigners are responsible for their woes, and cheer on government crackdown against dissent and diversity. Educated people might ask: “He’s coming after Mexicans, Muslims, the press, and dozens of other groups–how long until he comes after me?” But such a mental conversation never takes place.
We’ve made our bed.
It not infrequently happens that when people have responsibility thrust upon them, they rise to the occasion. Let us hope that Trump responds in that manner.
I think this may happen. I spent a great deal of the the day consoling some of my friends along this line. There’s no reason to believe he’ll do what he claimed he would while he was pandering to the poor slobs who elected him.
Craig,
“poor slobs” ? Is that really the way to describe your fellow countrymen ?
Many, though certainly not all. FWIW, I’m deeply ashamed of my country. I thought (incorrectly) that a boorish loudmouth would resonate with a very slim minority.
Craig,
Perhaps that’s the trouble with only listening to a small group of fellow travelers, it restricts your perception and limits your ability to understand others.
Everyone, including Donald Trump, is more complex and human than stereotypes created by assessing everyone through the prism of ideological intolerance.
Whether you like it or not, Donald Trump is now the legitimately elected President and Commander-in Chief or the USA for four years.
As I see it, there’s two ways the American left and the traditional conservatives can react to the Trump phenomenon.
1) Refusal to accept reality and indulge in orgy of bitter opposition and disruption, thus negating any positive influence on the new President and supporters, resulting in further alienation and provoking a hard-line attitude from Trump supporters.
The US has been through this before. Early in his Presidency Nixon attempted to reach out to the young and left. He received a hysterical and intolerant rebuff. The result is history.
2) Traditional conservatives and the US left could change tactics. Both could reassess Donald Trump, and his supporters. To deal themselves back in the game, they need to reach out to Donald Trump with well reasoned and acceptable proposal to mitigate his more negative objectives and enlist his talents to achieve more beneficial programs.
But then, that just depends on how much you care about what you consider important, the welfare of your nation and environment, or sense of outrage, petulance and ideological purity.
Thank you Marcopolo. We need to remember that we are all Americans and although many have been duped by a few we need to get out of the bed that was made and change it and fight for our rights.
Maybe it’s too early, but I haven’t seen any indication of waves of US refugees desperately fleeing the Trump regime for more liberal climes !
Just a thought……
Record numbers of Americans are moving to Canada, but it is a 5 year trend: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3433005&page=1
It remains to be seen how many people will emigrate. Everyone with a conscience is horrified at the election result, but that does not translate into packing up and leaving.
This is a bit of an illusion, on my view. He owes the hard right a ton and Pence is the one who will run the country. It’s going to be very quick and VERY bitter!
Does being liberal imply that only your opinion is valid? The US has a very serious check/balance system in addition 0bama didn’t create any dramatic climate initiatives, talk is cheap. 30 percent decrease in 15 years is way to little to late and we see no real gov’t action, if we see changes it will be from the private sector. Accepting reality gracefully while continuing to work diligently on ones agenda is a mature reaction
Chaya,
Well said, very well said !
All I know is I am classically educated(maybe not Yale or ?)
I know people have been struggling major league.
Myself I have only been employed 2 out of 8 years, full time in the Obama years. The geographical employment density must be addressed and barriers to enrty must be removed. Training is training and those who think that they are better than one who gets his or hers hands dirty were sent a message.
The prerequisite (increased cost) institutions should not be able to pick winners and losers either. If the job for that degree is 15 per hour such as a social worker the degree cost must go way down. The question is If a individual is taught the job, by the corporation, can or does he do the job better or equal to the institutional educated. If the time is equal there would be no competition…and bno indoctronation
The post election near term future for the US is a remarkable one Craig.
You have accorded much to much weight on a period of distorted rhetoric in general rather than the known substance and capability of the masses, which will prevail of course when the hoopla and hysteria has run its course.
And it has nearly run its course.
A livened up and reved up US citizenry will be the resultant.
As for the US and greenhouse gasses policy going forward, just the opposite to what you and the NRDC have forecast will occur. The Paris accord outcomes will be well and truly exceeded by the US through an emboldened technological research and development initiative centered on future “big energy” science and security.
Global climate change technology science has just been given a serious boost but not in the form that traditional thinkers might understand.
Lawrence Coomber
A few comments not exactly about the election but about it as an event:
Media outlets seems to have been emphasizing “uncertainty” in the general population with interviews while trying to explain what has transpired with polls and pundits. Just a few observations:
After elections news outlets generally experience a slump in viewer/readership. This kind of coverage could be a bit self serving.
They are telling us how wrong the polls were about the election but are using polls to try and explain what happened. How are these polls any more accurate?
The election was very close yet, I haven’t seen one poll or pundit speak to the question of how many people voted for Trump because they feel that they were cheated from voting for Sanders by the DNC and the Clinton Campaign. It seems rather glaring in its absence. Sort of the elephant in the room.
There is a lot of discussion of the election of Trump as a “defeat” for women’s issues. Typically the coverage comes in the form of a interview of a distraught female Clinton supporter. It seems to beg the question of whether they were supporting Clinton because she is a woman and reading ghost items into the party platform. It seems too impolite to ask the question.
To your point, LC, I have heard at least one person say that they must now wake up and pay closer attention to the issues. (Like the NRDC above,) but generally many and the media seem to be looking away from anything that looks like self admonishment and toward some external thing to blame.
Breath,
The idea of an even more leftist candidate winning is a bit far fetched. The electorate resoundingly displayed a desire to return to abandon ideologues and doctrines and return to traditional values.
Bernie Saunders appealed to an even smaller, but more vocal group. Leftist parties always split into factions when they lose focus and purpose.
The democrats had grown complacent, relying on professional organization, money and a hugely supportive media.
While this may sustain a genuinely popular candidate, it can’t stave off the tide of dissatisfaction forever. The triumph of Republican candidates on such a wide scale displays a real mood for change far beyond the Presidency.
The mood may evaporate over the next four years.
Part of the election environment is that down ballot candidates tend to gain from presidential favor. You could infer that people favor a conservative agenda or you could see it as part of the benefit of a presidential win.
Alternatively, Trump lost the popular vote by about 200,000, so you might be right and down ballot canditates were standing on their own merits in their own elections.
I sometimes reflect on the idea that in the “average IQ is 100” then in addition to those above that number there are many below. Media refers to “white males who without a college degree” as a demographic. I wonder if this is just a euphemism for the non PC “low intelligence” on their part.
Regarding a more leftist candidate winning? In the first instance we didn’t have one. Secondly, at one time, polling suggested that Sanders could have more easily defeated Trump than Clinton. (Should we even trust polls?) Now, we will never know and it is pure speculation.
People coalesce over common ideals. “Leftist parties” tend not to share the great unifier, money. Once that is absent there is more of a challenge to find common ground. Sanders appeal was kind of an “anti-[big] money.” He never shied away from the fact that he was a [Democratic] socialist. With that so much in the news at the time I thought it important to review the roots and definitions of socialism and its seeming appropriate critique of capitalism. The video came out in March and surprisingly now has almost 300,000 views. It is not the only surprising revelation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P97r9Ci5Kg
I would say that you’re partially right here. A couple of points:
There are many really bright people who think that Bernie Sanders would have defeated Trump. Of course, we’ll never know. But what got Trump elected was masses of people angry at having to work longer hours for less pay, while watching the rich (e.g., the political elites) getting richer. Part of the reason for Hillary Clinton’s loss is that she represented–and in large measure created–this grand apathy towards to the blight of working class Americans. Bernie really got this, which why his message carried him much further than anyone thought possible.
In a very real way, Bernie is simply a Trump without all the hate, racism, war-mongering, misogyny, climate denial, autocratic style, etc.
Craig,
Oh dear Craig, Bernie is definitely not simply a Trump without all the hate, racism, war-mongering, misogyny, climate denial, autocratic style, etc !
Bernie Saunders is just an old guy preaching a tired old political doctrine with appeal only to a small group of people, most of whom don’t vote !
In fact he’s actually a sort of anti-Trump, without even Trump’s peculiar charisma.
Point is, for the next four years every American, and nearly every country is going to have to deal with the man in the White House. That includes traditional conservatives and the media.
The problem for people will be figuring out how to deal with a guy who defies all previous stereotyping and isn’t subject to the normal political considerations.
Yet, Trump could also present a great opportunity to reach his supporters and achieve a new level of understanding.
‘course you could try impotently yelling abuse at Trump and his supporters, really, really loudly…..but then that’s sort of what got him elected isn’t ?
A recent poll, after the election, has indicated that Sanders would have won in a landslide if he was running against Trump. That tends to refute your speculation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLgqzdW8yOA
Marco, that would be the exit poll taken after the election. The commentary cited is available but does require a small threshold: the willingness to listen instead of constantly pontificate, the ability to read the cite or click on the link and the ability to listen to the commentary. You have sometimes managed at least two of those things.
We can only hope it evaporates! There is another election in two years…
Hi Breath,
Now what poll would that be ? The one that said he’d never run, or the one which said he’d never get nominated, or maybe those that said he’d never get elected ?
What does it take to convince you true believers ? The desire to not face reality is very strong, but understandable.
Bernie Sauders had about as much chance as Ed Muskie in ’72, actually a lot less.
The Mood will never get started
Well, that may be true. The Earth could be hit by a giant asteroid too. Jesus’ second coming may happen before the end of Trump’s term, or even before his inauguration. There is no reason to believe in any of these, but all are possible. Thanks for your input.
A bit snarky? An asteroid or the second coming may be a bit like a big bottle and a long night. Just another form of escape. I don’t generally believe in such “escapes” as a plan. But there are other things that could happen before the inauguration. A civil suit, perhaps even a criminal suit? The present civil unrest over the election seems a bit unprecedented. The electors must yet vote. And we can cry a bit over who is recommended for the cabinet and some 44 vacant judicial seats. At one time, I considered that no matter who was elected there would be challenges all the way to the inauguration and beyond.
There was an article in a paper recently where the journalist mused that he really did not know anyone who voted for Trump and so he never really heard their perspective. I have heard from too many people who were rabidly in favor of one candidate or the other. It was clear that there was going to be crying and gnashing of teeth no matter who gained office. As a nation we are so very painfully divided. Most seem interested in their partisan goals rather then the well-being of the whole.
The Republicans and the president elect will tend to take the election as a mandate for the conservative agenda progressives fear. The French are now wondering if a conservative can win there. But these may be the wrong lessons.
This election outcome has been compared to Brexit. If change is not quickly in evidence then midterm election season begins in about 18 months and dissatisfaction should show up there. It would be good if the Dems and progressives moved from emotion, and lots of finger pointing, to cleaning house and a solid plan for Change, rather than simply how to get into power to make a few changes. A positive outlook would be to look to that future. But anger and denial tend to go together.
Craig,
It was said of the French Bourbon family that they learned nothing and forgot nothing.
I hope this is not the case with the US left, but I fear already the outrage and excuses are being formulated to prevent any constructive learning process.
Donald Trump is a relatively mild version of politicians world wide being elected by angry, embittered majoriies fed up with being bullied, patronized, lectured, preached to, called stupid, deplorable, and generally abused.
Merely a decade ago,these same folks were interested, concerned and willing to listen. They respected genuine scientists, and wanted to “do the right thing” by the environment.
Since then they have found themselves treated with contempt by extremist, left ideologues misusing environmental rhetoric to disguise old leftist doctrines.
Finally, they reacted to all the fanaticism, intolerance, abuse spouted by self-righteous, sanctimonious advocates and the hysterical exaggerations From the liberal media.
The result is, as I feared, President Trump.
It could be much worse, Trump is a little bizarre and lacks real political skill, the US electors could have found far cleverer populist demagogue. A Leader with real political skill and truly evil agenda could have been elected.
The US left and environmentalists should buy a copy of Herman Wouk’s novel, The Caine Mutiny.(or at least rent the movie). Special note should made of the speech directed at the mutineers by defence attorney Barney Greenwald after the acquittal.
In his refusal to celebrate with his clients, he devastates them with his assertion that he considers them all morally reprehensible, and their victory over the exhausted and unstable Queeg, was bought at the price of gross dereliction of duty, despicable, if not treasonable.
So it is with the election of Donald Trump, the liberal/left elite can waste it’s time lampooning and agitating against Trump, or learn from the experience and focus on what’s important.
They can start by listening to the concerns of the moderates, and moderate their rhetoric accordingly.
Respect is difficult to earn, but it’s never going to be acquired by failing to show respect for others.
Hopefully, the whole rhetoric Trump created was enough noise to win the election, and when he sees the real issues in the White House, he come to his senses, and govern in a Republican, but more reasonable manor. At least we can hope for that.
Yes, we can indeed. Thanks, Howard.
Howardh, People seem to think that the country “wanted” Trump. He “won” regardless of not gaining the popular vote and having 57% who voted for him dislike him. An argument could and has been made that he did not so much “Win” the election as the Democrat and the DNC “lost” the election. Polls show that Sanders would have defeated Trump.
The primary problem with a Trump presidency as I see it is similar to a Regan presidency, you don’t know who is really in charge. There is a figure head and then there are advisors. If you look at the platform of what he plans to do within the first 100 days it reads like nothing that as every come out of his mouth. http://www.npr.org/2016/11/10/501597652/fact-check-donald-trumps-first-100-days-action-plan Sure he has talked about those things, but the words are clearly not his phrasing. So the “machinery” of a Trump presidency is in motion. Surrounding that is a bit of a fiction that there is a person who was elected in charge.
Yeah, his plan looks weak, I’m not impressed. Thanks for the link!
First things first.
Craig, I need you to inhale and exhale a deep breath. You are a physicist and a philosopher, so please take the time to offer an overture of objectivity to the situation, instead of responding in such a defensive and emotional manner.
Okay, now moving on…
Hillary is not a climate champion. Let’s not kid ourselves. She is an opportunist and a chameleon. Just like Trump. The difference is that Trump had enough charmisa and foresight to see clearly that a broken party with an irritated electorate could be swayed to follow him on an unknown path. As a libertarian, I am torn by this election. I am firmly against large government, but I am a an ardent believer in equality and human rights. I appreciate the lower tax rate that is coming, which will benefit my company, and provide us with the opportunity to have greater oversight over our development processes by giving us greater financial room with which to maneuver, however I am also a scientist and find the very notion of “clean coal” nothing short of insane. I could go back and forth on this subject, pontificating on the positive and negative positions made evident by the result of this election, but that would do me no good. As a responsible conscious individual, it is my obligation to evaluate, observe, and prepare to respond pragmatically to the situation as it evolves(or devolves, depending on the outcome).
The technology and company that I am in the process of bringing on line has from the very beginning taken a neutral stance relative to the sourcing of power. One of the great values we provide is total conditioning of power, leading to greater overall efficiencies in power generation and distribution throughout the grid. In fact, if fossil fuels are to be combusted to a greater degree, and the transition to clean energy sourcing decelerated, then my technology is that much more important, providing me with a platform from which to argue the desperate need for our integration into grid operations. So, in this case, a negative situation may offer an opportunity.
That being said, I understand well your frustration. But I understand even more the importance of owning the strength to endure in the face of opposition and failure, and harnessing the will to pivot and circumvent those obstacles to ensure that long term success can be achieved.
In the end, those men and women capable of changing the world will do so regardless of what the masses want or think, and regardless of politics or policy. I intend to offer a solution to a legitimate problem. Democrat? Republican? In the end it is not relevant. The world has created another obstacle. I choose to look ahead. I choose to believe in opportunity where most men see uncertainty. This optimism is borne of a dogged realism and the capacity and the desire to dream.
Craig, I see the world as one giant experiment, where unknown variables come into play, manipulating anticipated outcomes, and shattering expectations, thereby altering circumstances entirely. What I do not do is complain. Or allow things which are out of my control to affect my emotional state. I have far too much to accomplish, and little time to waste.
Least of all on something as foolish as politics.
Scott,
Thank you for an interesting and reasonable perspective.
Although there’s a great deal of truth in what you say, conservation of the environment needs support from the average Joe in the street on a global basis. Joe Public needs to be persuaded, not bullied, into better choices and more importantly to agree to fund environmental research and clean tech development.
But thank you for pointing out that becoming emotive over political events, is not helpful, in fact it’s often counter-productive.
Trump said all the things that a youthful voting America would go for. When i was young, i also believed in conspiracy theories, that our sovereignty is more important than the rest of world (which seeks to take advantage of us).
I also believed that solar energy would eventually power the world (and now see that is becoming real) but figured a strong America was still more important.
Thankfully, Trump will kinda like stick with bringing back jobs here! That’ll help the eco situation – logically and nomically.
Also, he will not literally build a wall. Hopefully, we all can convince his panel to put money into pure science research still needed for better batteries and solar.
Robert Bernal,
I like your support for Solar and battery research, but you take a step too far when you claim “solar powering the world is becoming real” !
It’s this kind of over-optimism, and unrealistic, utopian claims that have lost creditably with Joe Public. The focus should now be on toning down the crusading rhetoric, and rebuilding through solid, practical, achievement public trust and confidence that their tax dollar is being wisely invested.
Is it over optimism to look at the history of solar growth? Is that to always be tied to utopian dreams (how silly!)?
We’ll never make it to clean and vast awesome energy via big business alone. It needs a kick from the billions who support it, but not continued subsidy for solar business that would no longer seek efficient and to become vertically streamlined.
Now, Trump will hopefully strengthen the U.S. so that we can continue the much needed science research… And the development of the automation to make it all happen. That’s what fossil fuels are for. I’m thankful for fossil fuels, however, they still stink (yes, i want a fully electric solid state energy and mobile infrastructure and we will eventually get it if we do not lose sight). So I am not going too far to say solar will someday (be able to) power the growing world. Trumpers will eventually want that too!
Mark my words, it’ll all become exponential!
a canadian journalists perspective:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-election/the-real-reason-donald-trump-got-elected-we-have-a-white-extremism-problem/article32817625/
Mr T is not the real issue. Take a look at those supporting him. Start with Pence. Many of them are truly evil. The article that link showcased is fabulous!
Kathryn ,
I can tell you who got Trump elected,..You ! For years I’ve been warning that a smug. self-righteous, largely urban leftist elite have been ignoring a large percentage of their fellow citizens.
The election of Trump is a rebellion against a self appointed, sanctimonious, finger wagging, professionally outraged, conceited liberal elite.
There’s no “conspiracy” now “evil”, just a significant number of folks don’t like your message or preaching. Donald Trump is at least relatively naive and approachable. He’s shrewd enough to be be beholden to no one, and that makes him pretty unique in US politics.
You should be grateful that a far more cynical, cunning and politically adept populist candidate didn’t take office.
This is not an aberration, this is the beginning of a world wide tidal wave of rejection !
Repeating the same failed rhetoric, but louder, is counter-productive, it’s time to learn form the mistakes, be humble and develop better policies that people can accept and support.
For environmentalists, this doesn’t have to be a train-wreak, unless extreme advocates continue to fight unwinnable battles, and lose any chance of influencing the Trump administration.
Marco, sometimes I sincerely wonder if you are a person or a robo-bot that constantly puts out the same material in response to every comment.
I don’t know if you can’t read or are just so badly out of touch with American politics that you can’t understand that Trump did not win because of popular opinion. He lost popular opinion by more than 200,000 votes.
The election of Trump is nothing more than a corrupt failure of an inept DNC, the Democratic candidate and a unique American institution called the Electorial college. There is no ideology, no mandate, no world wide movement to embrace conservatism, anti-environmentalism, neo-Nazism or whatever it is that you or your programmers profess.
Breath,
What a weird response ! No matter how you try to refine reality, Donald Trump won the election ! He will be President. It doesn’t matter if by some other set of rules in a parallel universe, that might not be the case, in this world he will be inaugurated !
Throughout the Western world the tide of populist candidates with conservative agenda’s has been building for some time.
For some years I’ve been warning “crusading” advocates that extremist claims,abusive behavior,condescension, demanding public funds for ill-concieved failed projects etc, would provoke a counter reaction that will harm and discredit even legitimate environmental progress.
The hi-jacking of environmental clean tech to further leftist ideology and political ambition, inevitably proved counter-productive.
The result is President Trump ! It could have been worse. Trump is at least a populist with a strong streak of individualism. He’s a basically a promoter and entrepreneur, he can be influenced.
Why do I persist iwarning guy’s like you and Cameron to desist from making the same mistakes over, and over ?
Because I can see the light at the end of tunnel, and unlike you, I know it’s not utopia, but large locomotive !
I care about the environment. I’m alarmed at the narcissistic rhetoric of extremist advocates. Over the last decade these advocates indulged in a orgy of extravagant claims and absurd demands, to the detriment of the more humble, realistic, moderate and practical environmental movement.
The intolerant doctrines screeched by these advocates has bullied and vilified even the mildest criticism, until most ordinary people fell silent for fear of being labelled politically incorrect.
It was inevitable that a ‘champion’ would arise to oppose the crusaders and “true believers”. Some are more intellectual and moderate, but most are like Donald Trump.
Who got Trump elected ? (And he is elected) that’s easy ! People like you, Cameron etc.
The people who voted for Trump, really voted against you. No matter how you blame others, invent other reasons, reassure yourself with fantastic explanations, Trump could never have stood a chance if millions of voters weren’t sick and tired of being ignored, abused, and vilified and sneered at, by people like you and Cameron.
That’s the true tragedy. Donald Trump isn’t the President America, or the world, needs. America needs (But doesn’t deserve) a President of the promise RFK once provided.
You are correct when you say there’s no world trend toward neo-nazism, but there is a growing world-wide rejection of the sort of arrogant attitude and advocacy you’re attempting to defend.
As always, there is a certain validity to what you write (even though I think you tend to miss the main points). There’s no evil? Wow.
In this case, you’ve nailed the fact that this was caused by smug intellectuals’ completely underestimating the strength of Trump’s message and how irresistible it was to so many voters.
Let your fear and disappointment be tempered by the realization that Trump lost the popular vote (though barely), and that only about a quarter of eligible voters voted for him.
As a people, we made the least poor choice between the two poor choices we had left on the ballot this cycle, but the Electoral College math (a relic of aristocracy) went strongly in Trump’s direction.
Certainly fear of the other (manifested as racism driven by fear of physical and cultural differences), traditional patriarchy (manifested as misogyny), and religious extremism at home and abroad played their parts. Those factors we’re not as decisive as some of the current inflammatory rhetoric would lead is to believe.
Instead, more decisive was the decimation of our middle class, which left people fiercely unwilling to accept any status quo candidate. Many people have correctly identified the problems, but they misapprehend the causes and the solutions.
If we can be considered as a diverse but increasingly cohesive movement of people who are at once interested in socioeconomic justice and sustainable compatibility with the biosphere, I’d say that we survived eight years of Reagan, and we survived eight years of Bush (and emerged stronger) – we’ll likely survive Trump and the GOP.
Long-term trends in demographics and public opinion show the GOP establishment’s political influence is waning more and more – that’s why Trump’s anti-establishment rhetoric worked so much better on so many desperate and hurting people than did the more standard rhetoric of the other GOP candidates.
That said, voter apathy and disenfranchisement, and widespread interference with the polling process took their toll. The latter was perpetrated transparently enough by both the red and blue stained hands. The result is painful to see…
According to the FEC, out of eligible voters…
46.9% didn’t vote
25.6% voted for Clinton
25.5% voted for Trump
1.7% voted for Johnson
The apathy of voters – in other words the people’s disbelief in the viability of collective self-governance – will be mightily helped along by candidate coins like the one we saw tossed this time – two of the most unpopular and distrusted nominees of all time, provided by the most greed driven and dishonesty-dependent segments of society.
We always need to peer beyond the tools – the media and political parties – to see who owns and funds them.
It strikes me interesting that there has been a simultaneous push for mere creations of law to claim the birthrights of flesh and blood humanity, and for the establishment of opaque barriers to identifying the sources of unlimited bribery. Classic pincer movement.
Bribery – tolerated by so many of our people, will be the weight on the camel’s back, that will be broken by the straw of voter failure – whether through disgust or disenfranchisement of the long lines that keep away people with two jobs and or no child-care.
It also strikes me as interesting that it seemed neither party wanted the job. Perhaps neither wanted the blame for what may be about to happen.
A good government can serve many purposes, but it must now – as ever – be compelled to get on with the business of facilitating the greatest elevation of dignity, humanity, prosperity and justice possible. These are purposes We The People have collectively allowed a tiny greedy elite few to interfere with for far too long.
Good government won’t come from people who hate government, nor from people who believe government should be all powerful.
While there are folks on all sides who are willfully beyond reaching, the rest of us must do our best to organize around vigilance and communication – independent of any political party dogma.
The bright horizon to which we again set our eyes must be the universal liberty to live and love as we choose, and the birthright for all to live in equal dignity and a genuine opportunity to contribute to, and share in a broadly sustainable prosperity.
Data from Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report, 2013 & U.S. Census Bureau, 2012 allows us a simple but stark equation:
·In mid-2012, global wealth was about $223 trillion USD, and there were about 7 billion people globally.
What would it look like if we divided that global $223 trillion evenly among Earth’s population of seven billion? It would equal just $31,857.14 per person – not per year, but TOTAL.
Few would even consider enforcing the equal distribution of that modest lump sum per person.
Still, in contrast, consider this next stunning extreme that was documented by OXFAM in January 2016:
Just sixty-two people in the world possess more wealth than 3.5 billion people combined. …Think about that for five seconds… Each of these 80 people holds an average of $28.4 billion.
Want some scale? $23.7 billion is $43,207.14 every single hour, around the clock, for seventy-five years.
Can it be rationally argued that such hoarding is just and rationally defensible, or even sustainable?
I’m with you, especially about the “sustainability” issue. This can’t last forever in the context on a civilized society.
Well said Cameron.
Perhaps we should understand some of Marco’s comments within the context that the Australian system of Government is very different than the US. It is parliamentary based so the executive power derives from the legislature. It has only 6 states, less than a tenth the people, everyone is required to vote and they have universal health care.
Breath,
Er, couple of points. Although I’m not a US citizen, I’m quite familiar with the US electoral system (I’m a qualified lawyer and once contemplated practicing in the US so I passed the NY bar exam). I’ve even taken part in the campaign of a US candidate. So, I think I’ve some knowledge of US politics, and the US system.
I’m also a citizen of the UK, which has a larger population and much older history of representative government than the US !
But your observation that executive power under the Westminster system is derived from the legislature. Although Australia has only six states (and two territories) each state elects 12 Senators and the territories 2 each, making a total of 72 !
You may feel that a smaller population makes local politics easier, but the same divisiveness and self interest is evident.
The advantage of a Westminster system is because cabinet is elected, cabinet ministers (secretaries) are more accountable on a day to day basis and can be questioned in parliament daily.
The position of ‘Commander in Chief’ is beyond politics, residing with the Monarch who in turn is bound by the Constitution.
There are advantages in both systems, as well as disadvantages. What’s important in any political system is to comply with the rules, or change them through due process.
Australia does not have universal health care, you’re thinking of Canada, the UK or NZ. Australia has a better system than the US, but medical procedures are still very expensive.
Lastly, no Australian is compelled to vote. Voting is completely voluntary. All eligible citizens are required to register to vote, turn up on voting day and be crossed of the roll, but there is no requirement to actually vote.
The subject of how much the rich earn or don’t earn, seems beyond Cameron’s comprehension. He appears to imagine a world where Scrooge McDuck possess giant money bins full of cash.
Individual wealth is usually derived from investment capital. This capital is the engine of the US economy. Interference by governments seeking punitive measures against this created wealth, simply trigger two events, (a) the capital transfers to more friendly climes, or the value drops as economic activity slows and investments lose value.
The effect doesn’t hurt the rich, but is devastating for the general populace.
Great wealth is a by-product of surplus and a large population. If I could get a mere dollar from every Australian, I’d only have $24 million, but if I got just one dollar from every American, I’d have $330 million, still not as good as $1 dollar from every Chinese, ($1.5 Billion!).
That explains the sudden explosion in wealth. Globally, in the last 15 years over one billion people joined the middle class.
That’s a lot of consumers ! The explosion of wealth created by the information age is more difficult and complex to redistribute since it’s not ‘ real money’ in the old fashioned sense, but complex financial instruments almost incomprehensible except to a small group of expert technocrats.
Many of these products and instruments don’t exist in the accepted sense. Traditional taxation methods are virtually impossible to implement.
Modern economics produces strange, even ironic events. Warren Buffet is $6 billion dollars richer because of Trump’s victory. Despite Buffets’ massive support for Hilary Clinton, Buffet holds 10% of the shares in Wells Fargo Bank. Wells Fargo shares soared 13% on the back of the Trump victory.
Weird eh !?
Tomorrow, it could change for some other unforeseeable reason, and Buffet becomes $6 billion poorer.
The point is, sustainability isn’t an issue. Clinton raised more than twenty times in campaign money over Trump, in addition to receiving 95% media support, yet she lost.
Trump proved an outsider can beat the odds and defeat a massively more heavily funded, better organized, more experienced opponent.
Trump also made a mockery of all those who believe money or the media can control an election.
Trump did not receive a mandate. If the president had been chosen by popular vote, Mrs. Clinton would have been elected.
Trump has already backed down on some of what he said during his campaign. He stated that he would 100% repeal the Affordable Care Act, aka Obama Care. He has stated that he wants to retain the part that would permit people with pre-existing conditions to get medical insurance; he also wants to retain the ability of adult children to remain on their parents’ policy to a certain age. That is only the beginning. It remains to be seen on what else he will back down from his campaign statements.
Although I remain alarmed by his election, it may turn out that things will not be nearly so bad as we might think.
Framk,
Donald Trump doesn’t have a mandate ?
Good grief, you surprise me. I expected that sort of reaction from Breath and Cameron, who just can’t accept reality, but I t6hought you would be a little more pragmatic.
Trump is legitimately elected President. The Republican Congress is also legitimately elected.
The US electoral system may be complicated and a little odd, but it has served the American people for centuries. Attempting to redefine the rules because you don’t like the result, is pointless and those consoling themselves with such nonsense are doomed to lose again.
It doesn’t matter if most US citizens didn’t vote, or the tiny difference in the popular vote, Trump won according to the rules. That’s the reality, trying to find a method of ignoring that reality, is what got the Democrats into this quagmire.
How he defines his Presidency will be as interesting and unique as his campaign. Trump is the first President, beholden to no party machine, heavy backers, political hierarchy.
He’s a true outsider. Shunned by many in his party, or at best tepidly supported, his campaign saw none of the huge organization and funding associated with US campaigns. Almost univerally despised, mocked and derided by the media, Trump trundled on building momentum by defying the very forces that have so long dominated US politics.
It can be truly said that Clinton did a fantastic job of building an organization, but Trump built a movement. Trump spoke to, and for, an older, rural America. An America to long sneered at, forgotten and abused by the new tech savvy urban elite. Finally these forgotten Americans found a champion, a man unafraid to give voice to their concern and plight. A man who spoke their awkward, politically incorrect language.
Trump wasn’t supported by traditional Republicans, his vote came from the ignored and forgotten working class. These are the folk leftists have always claimed to represent, but in recent decades sneer at and take for granted. These “poor slobs”, have had their revenge. That’s what happens when any group is ignored, bullied, and made to feel inferior.
They found a champion ! How he uses that support is another matter. President Trump will have a great advantage. No one, not even his most ardent supporters, really expects he will carry out all his campaign utterances. But unlike other politicians, no one will think less of him when he modifies or fails to keep promises.
In fact it could increase his popularity ! All his supporters want is to be heard. They want to be made to feel part of America again. So far Trump makes them feel important.
It’s a tragedy that a candidate like RFK didn’t arise to garner that support, and build a campaign of inclusiveness that would give every American inspiration and hope.
Alas, in the end it came down to President Trump. He’s an unlikely personality to try and unify the nation, but I hope the American people can rise above the acrimony of this election and work to a better future.
A Clinton victory, would have been even more divisive, marred by years of bitter politicking, and further erosion of US political life.
Progressives, liberals, Democrats must learn some hard lessons from this election. The first is to stop whining about how Trump didn’t really win !
The hardest lesson for environmental advocates will be:
1) Disengage environmental issues from confusing leftist political doctrine.
2) Curtail extravagant claims, wild exaggerations and dreams of exciting apocalyptic scenario’s, with utopians solutions.
3) Focus on realistic, carefully monitored and properly analyzed projects that can really build public credibility in clean tech, without needing to be sustained by public funding.
4) Focus on practical, realistic, achievable environmental goals Joe Public can understand,appreciate and suport.
5) Abandon the “Crusader” attitude of emulating the most intolerant religious fervor, replete with evil villains, persecution, and vilification of heretics by a sanctimonious, self-righteous elite.
I sincerely hope these are the lessons environmentalists will learn form the US election.
Trump received slightly less than 50% of the popular vote. I do not see how that could be considered to be a mandate.
HI Frank.
The rules are the rules. That’s just how the US system works. The Westminster system often produces a similar result with parties winning the largest number of seats in Parliament, but not necessarily the largest over all vote.
Trump has a legitimate mandate because the US doesn’t have a simple popular vote. In the 1960 election, JFK should have lost since many of the votes in Texas and other southern states were clearly fraudulent.
No system is perfect. If the vote had gone the other way, and Trump won another 100,001 votes, would you say HC didn’t have a mandate ?
You may not like it, but there comes a time when you must accept the decision and play by the rules.
In reality, Donald Trump will be legally and legitimately sworn in as President. Every American must learn to accept that reality.
Some might go so far to say that Trump rode a wave that was created by Sanders.
I am sorry Marco, you are reading into the election what you want to see.
Marco,
insulting Cameron doesn’t seem to make any sense, unless you like the great divide in monetary prosperity.
I’m going with America and they do not like the elites making tens of thousands of dollars every hour, either. As some one else said (kinda), why waste it on mere politics when we should all just promote the prosperity needed to motivate Joe six pack to actually care about the environment and affordable housing, so that we all can afford to make it cheaper so we can do something about it.
I’m anticipating that there might be a good argument in favor of a few good billionaires but they actually have to be “good”, with morals.
I believe the problem with our prosperity is ripoff sleaze bags that do nothing but flip the prices of everything, keeping their substantial profit worth (seemingly) orders of magnitude more than the labor, the REAL work, required to make “it all happen”. It takes skill to build a house and to allow others to make it impossible for the younger generation to afford a house should be the main concern (even before global warming).
Is there any way to address that problem without taxing the hell out of the flippers for subsidy payments to those that actually work?
It’ll definitely have to be that way when robots take over the work force?
So I’m with the Republicans about creating jobs (and I’m with Trump with being against too many so called free trade deals) but with the democrats about taxing the rich, with a caveat: the more employees they keep HERE in this country, the less the tax rate. And I’m with America for lots of wind and solar energy done cheap with continued research towards the development of a suitable bulk storage type of battery, to keep all the hydroelectric despite what any idiot’s plan to tear down, to research and build whatever best (for security reasons) nuclear, and for the development of fusion.
This is about energy which requires that we somehow obtain the economic power to go beyond mere fossil fuels.
Hi Robert,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but here’s a couple of points you might like to consider.
The number of billionaires, and “people making thousands of dollars per hour” , is just the natural (and unavoidable) product of large populations and expanding economies.
There are no “good” or “bad” billionaires, just people who are billionaires. Like all people, rich or poor, billionaires are all have different personalities, with the same faults and strengths as you and me.
The problem of affordable housing, is a product of increasing urbanization. Naturally, the more humans and less land, the more desirable housing will cost. There is plenty of affordable housing in small towns, but employment is in the city and excitement. All across the US small towns are dying, killed by giant suburbs with huge shopping malls.
Unfortunately, the world is globalizing. Local economies can’t remain isolated. The information revolution has left even more Americans isolated from the creation of wealth.
Old fashioned ideas like taxing the wealthy more, no longer work. Not only are such taxes impossible to implement, but the impact on economic activity just leaves everyone worse off.
Each era has it’s casualties. I have two sons, the elder chooses to work very hard as a Doctor with an under-privileged, rural community while the younger is a high powered Wall Street technocrat dealing in financial derivatives I’ve barely heard of (let alone understand)and most of which didn’t exist 5 years ago!
They both live in different worlds, maybe even different centuries, but like most people, they share more in common than they realize.
Trump is essentially a reactionary. He’s not a scociopath, or even bad guy, he want’s an America that never existed except on 50’s TV shows. Think of him a the Mayor in the movie “Plesentville”.
The problem is the world has moved on and can’t be brought back. 7 billion humans, the internet, TV ,social media etc, is a tidal wave that is sweeping away all the old institutions, leaving nothing but complexity and incomprehensible challenges.
Like victims of a shipwreck, we cling to outdated flotsam of beliefs and ideologies as the only recognizable objects in a whirlpool.
That makes sense. Thanks for the reply.
Affordable housing won’t happen just because i don’t like the idea of every body flipping houses. Perhaps this is how we, as a whole, could afford inflation,with so much more money being exchanged (to deal with previous deficits). I’m not sure but (for others reading this)
Trump is the right guy regardless of his much hated rhetoric. He had to say some extreme stuff to not only appeal to the people tired of the same old, but to actually undermine his opponent, which worked when she constantly took the bait and attacked him instead of explaining how her agenda would be the “best”.
RE will compete once the science of storage improves.
Besides, climate change uncertainty hinges on the little bit of global warming fact, that we have to actually double the co2, to increase temps merely 1.2 C. The research is still needed though, just as we have to research errant asteroids, etc, to better prepare for the future.
Wanted to add:
Marco, i read the rest of your comment and i agree, Trump is president and with that, there should be more people working here in the States.
Robert, several times you have returned to the theme of Trump “creating jobs.” Manufacturing jobs have gone overseas due to cheaper wages. All jobs are reduced in the US due to factories moving overseas and automation. All of these are economic pressures.
Perhaps Trump can produce a political change that will affect economics sufficiently to move some work back to the US, but it is unknown how this could happen and in fact it may be unlikely. In this case, we hope you are right but I am not going to anticipate very much in this direction.
President Trump….VERY difficult words to write for someone who thinks that he is the most unqualified “leader” ever voted in in any western democracy.
There ARE some doubts re his legitimacy; because of the unbelievable & supremely important FBI fumble in the last week: this had enormous clout with people who were undecided whether to vote for this jerkoff or not.
I think the best way to describe the gamble that US voters have taken with Trump is that it’s like giving a machine-gun to a 3 year-old, and expecting a good outcome. A totally unrealistic hope. Usually, I’m one of those people that can see a silver lining in every bad situation; but it’s impossible for me to see one here. Voters have just handed the most unqualified egomaniac politician ever the right to use the world’s most powerful military; and the world’s most powerful nuclear forces to pursue his agenda: which he is intellectually incapable of describing in more than one sentence; and which in any case is totally different to the one-sentence solution he offered up last week. Sorry, Craig: there is no good outcome on the horizon…if the result of this incredibly bad choice is not catastrophic I will be surprised beyond words.
It might be argued that Trump was elected to the presidency with little or no knowledge of how government works. The same might be said for logic.
If someone says we might excuse this person’s idiotic comments because of a lack of familiarity… it is as if in a court of law the defense says my client was insane.
And then that person comes back and says “Oh no, I know all about such a system…” it is as if the defendant goes about insisting that they are not insane. The lawyer might muse they are just an idiot. Out of context then “res ipsa loquitur.” There is a saying that the lawyer who acts in their own defense has a fool for a client.
You seem to equate “mandate” with legality. I would suggest the distinction is more akin to the difference between the spirit and the letter of the law. Winning an election does not, in and of itself, confer the blessings of the general population particularly in the case where voting is not required, is completed without a majority of the population and the winning is accomplished with only a slim majority if any.
But that will not stop some from using the rhetoric of a “mandate” in an attempt to persuade those disenfranchised into some form of complacency. It is often effective as somewhat of a bulling tactic. But particularly it does call into question the agenda of a non-citizen, non member of the voting population when they insist upon using the same tactic. Just who or what interest are they protecting? Money, wealth, power, unaligned with any political system?
And why contribute to ongoing discussions with an environmental concern except to foment dissatisfaction, discontent and to dissuade any form of concerted action or opinion? In short, a negative influence with no positive contribution, a drag on social change and social improvement for the purpose of supporting the status quo of money, wealth, and disproportionately distributed income and disproportionate use of the world’s environmental and economic resources. An elitist, part of the status quo that has lead us to environmental excess for primarily private and exclusive gain.
Breath,
You have made good points about what a mandate actually is.
Here is a link to an article by someone who fears that we may be on the road to fascism, just as Germany was prior to WWII:
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/13/1598112/-A-chilling-encounter-with-a-German-student-left-me-shaking?detail=email&link_id=3&can_id=dfdaa44d5c3d384b7eaef6db4870ec45&source=email-trump-issues-a-warning-for-obamastop-talking-to-the-rest-of-the-world-its-mine-now&email_referrer=trump-issues-a-warning-for-obamastop-talking-to-the-rest-of-the-world-its-mine-now&email_subject=trump-issues-a-warning-for-obama-stop-talking-to-the-rest-of-the-world-its-mine-now
It may be that the people have sufficient sense to prevent such an occurrence.
Breath,
Somewhere else on this thread I quoted Talleyrand when he observed of the French Bourbon royal family, “They learned nothing and forgot nothing”.
So, it would appear neither do you. It’s been a long time since I was insulted with such elegance, but evidently the election of Trump still hasn’t taught you the inadvisability of condescension, or calling people “idiots” for daring to disagree with your doctrines.
The addition of the “outsider” tag to bolster an illusion to some vaguely sinister undisclosed agenda or conspiracy theory, is pathetic, but sadly not unexpected.
However, you reply serves as an excellent example of the kind of attitude that created victory by such an unlikely candidate as Donald Trump.
Accepting responsibility for your own errors and mistakes is the first path back to success. Denial and self serving excuses will only elicit further rejection and alienation.
I guess that’s the big difference between us. I only seek an improved environment, where you are more concerned with achieving adherence to leftist ideology even if that prevents environmental progress.
The Oxford dictionary provides the following definition of “mandate”.
1. An official order or commission to do something.
2.The authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an election.
I think Donald Trump has fulfilled both definitions !
Attempting to re-write the definition to set aside reality, is exactly what cost the Progressive-Left any chance of influencing the election and will ensure future impotence.
As another contributor observed, “you are fighting on two many fronts”. That’s been the trouble for the environmental movement for over a decade. Instead of focusing environmental issues while enlisting a broad acceptance to support progress, environmentalist found themselves entangled with extraneous political issues which only distracted, confused and alienated the majority of the general public.
The result is President Trump, (and worse) unless the environmental movement frees itself from the grip of doctrinaire leftists, and commences building a more tolerant, focused and inclusive support base. (stop calling people idiots is a start)
The environment doesn’t care if improvement comes from a billionaire like Elon Musk, an oil company like Chevron, researchers like Dr Jodie Rummer, James Hansen, or Prof Ian Plimer. The environment only cares about the improvement.
As long as environmental issues remain open to different interpretations and free discussion, the general public will remain confident it can freely support whatever seems most sensible. Once a faction becomes entrenched, intolerant and dogmatic, Joe Public eventually withdraws support. This is especially true when extraneous issues are espoused loudly by hard line ideologues.
Over the next four years the American left and environmental extremists will enjoy themselves with useless disruptive political demonstrations and an orgy of hatred toward the President. The general public won’t see these outburst as genuine constructive opposition, but merely petulant tantrums by poor losers.
On the other hand, imagine what progress could be achieved by persuading Donald Trump to employ his undoubted charisma and talent for communication to support a clean tech project ?
Once free of all the political baggage, most Republicans would see the political advantages in supporting even a populist like Trump if he backed an acceptable “green” project.
By one step at a time the environmental movement could regain the momentum and focus it once enjoyed.
I do not understand how Trump can be considered as an appropriate section for president. Of course he won legally and we have to accept that. However, we have no way to know what to expect except inconsistency, total lack of diplomacy, impetuousness, a huge ego, indifference to the feelings of others, lack of common courtesy, and he may even be a psychopath.
Trump refused to release his income tax returns. Thus, we have no way to know whether, as he claims, he is a billionaire. He may even be bankrupt and have a negative net worth.
There are some things decent people, especially gentlemen, never say, even in a locker room, such as claiming to have groped women between the legs, yet he has actually claimed that and other despicable acts. Obviously he is not a gentleman. He either despises or has never heard of Emily Post and probably would have no idea how to turn the table or anything else about formal dining at the White House.
He established “Trump University” which is not a university at all. Rather, it is an organization which one pays to hear speeches by people associated with Trump. The speeches have been claimed by Trump to convey information to enable people to become rich. Even now, there is a trial scheduled in San Diego which may result in convicting Trump for fraud:
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-trump-trial-20161109-story.html
There is evidence that poor people have paid thousands of dollars to “Trump University” which is a fraud.
U.S. presidents often have to interact with high level officials in other countries. It would be unreasonable to expect officials in other countries to trust and respect Trump.
Trump also claims to see global warming as a fraud and has stated that the use of petroleum and coal should be expanded.
There are those who claim that Trump will make a fine president and that we should not take seriously much of what he has said. It would seem that those who think thusly do not see honesty has important. They also fail to see that anyone from which hot air constantly issues forth from his mouth cannot be trusted.
It may well be that a Trump presidency will be significantly less bad than many have supposed, but surely that is insufficient reason for more than very minimal comfort.
Frank,
I was interested to read your comment. From it I deduce the President-elect won’t be on your Christmas dinner invitation list 🙂
Let’s see if I understood your complaints correctly :
a) “inconsistency, total lack of diplomacy, impetuousness, a huge ego, indifference to the feelings of others, lack of common courtesy, and he may even be a psychopath”
Ah, I take it that you have the advantage of knowing Trump personally over a number of years, providing you with an intimate insight ? No ? Perhaps you are gifted with psychic powers to read minds at a distance. No ?
All politicians have considerable ego’s, Trump is just more open and doesn’t disguise his personality.
“lack of diplomacy” ? For 30 years Donald Trump has earned hundreds of millions of dollars selling real estate projects for other developers. He negotiates with highly successful individuals from every profession and nationality. These individuals are also skilled negotiators, yet trump not only is successful, but deals with the same people over and over again.
This would seem to refute your accusation he lacks diplomatic skills, or possesses considerable charm.
Donald Trump is reportedly a kind and loving father, generous friend and even his ex-wives speak highly of him !. He’s generally well liked and admired by his employees, including thousands of Blue collar workers. In a business not known for collegiality, he’s surprisingly well liked and trusted by the majority of people and institutions he’s dealt with.
( The development business always generates a percentage of disputes).
” Emily Post ? ” good grief, what century are you from ? As for his “locker room talk’, well,.. it’s certainly no worse than occurs in any working class bar, or any bar for that matter, as the evening wears on. I’ve heard a great deal worse in a senior US officers mess, and they’re supposed to be “gentlemen by act of Congress”.
Politically correct, well no…, but then it wasn’t meant for general publication.
I’m quite sure ol’ Don knows which Knife and Fork to use ! I have no idea if he knows how to layout a formal dining table, he’s President, not a Head Waiter or Butler. May be he can’t, but few head waiters are qualified welders, or can organize a ‘continuous concrete pour’.
I’ve sat at the same table as Trump some years ago, at that time he seemed perfectly at ease with the formal table setting.
One thing he won’t do is get drunk, (he’s teetotal) or behave lecherously to junior White House interns, purloin the furnishings or any of the other oddities involving Presidential families.
So what does that leave ?
Oh, yeah the business of Trump University. This is a civil case, not criminal. Donald Trump is not a defendant, it’s the corporate entity. He is not charged with any criminal fraud, so he couldn’t be “convicted” of any offense. The law suit doesn’t impede his ability to discharge the office of President.
(It’s not fraudulent to call any institution a University. It requires a more detailed level of deception.)
You may not like Donald Trump, he may not be your idea of a President, ( he’s not mine) but then nor were Teddy Roosevelt, LBJ, Andrew Jackson, or probably anyone except Lincoln, but it doesn’t make Trump either a psychopath, or unable to master a knife and fork.
In my experience, world leaders are a pretty tough lot. Donald Trump will be no surprise in comparison to most of the foreign and domestic (some from their own parties) they have to negotiate.
In fact looking back over past US Presidents, the Donald is a fairly mild character in comparison to some!
“He may even be a psychopath”.
Really? I guess he’d have to be quite determined to build all those buildings but i would not call him all those negative things.
Now, i wanted the leader that would do something about building vast RE, including but not limited to solar, wind and especially the kind of batteries that haven’t really been invented yet. But she might not have made good on those promises. Even if she did, she probably would have did it the wrong way (like continue heavy subsidy for solar to insure that big business will not invent ways to make it even cheaper). Besides, almost everyone in America thinks she’s a crook because of her defendong a child rapest onthe way up the ladder.
So yea, even though we don’t get what we thought we wanted, i believe AMERICA chose the strong leader we need because we would rather be late on taxes than do all the bad things she did!
All she did during the campain is bitch about him – so she deserved to lose, right. She probably would have given BILLIONS of $ to the united nations (or what not) in the supposed name of climate change.
You know what… We don’t know jack about CC! We do know about global warming and that says that we have a little bit more time AS LONG AS WE CONTINUE RESEARCH for the transition that is BETTER than fossil fuels. Trump likes bigger and better and many enviros actually want the human race to have LESS. That is not acceptable. Some enviros actually want to teardown good ole hydroelectric… Can you imagine that (no wonder republicans hate democrats).
So, we will pump a few hundred billion more tons of excess CO2 into the air, we’ll get stronger and we’ll have even more advanced science (*) necessary to reverse global warming. Hell, by then (4 or 8 years), we might even have dirt cheap batteries and good old advanced nuclear.
Oh… The *
We have to put all of our anti fossil fuels efforts into demanding billions of dollars for clean energy research… And not at all into bitching about our new fossil fuel president. Maybe, he’ll do that as a welcome exit! He already is not going to cut the remainder of the solar subsidy (according to the Washington Post.
Robert,
I applaud your sense of optimism and determination to carry making the best of all circumstances.
Robert, outside of NYC, many are not familiar with the reputation he has developed here of never paying sub-contractors or illegal aliens who he later had deported. Here it is a well known and typical tactic of his to be surrounded by thugs while he “negotiates” to pay you half of your contract rate while registering “complaints” about the job or workmanship. This kind of reputation for negotiation encourages substandard work, lawsuits, and failure to comply with design specifications. “Trump the builder” is a bit of a joke here. But perhaps he will be a completely different person as president.
Breath,
Just curious, but how do you know all this stuff ? I mean how many 40, 50, 60 story building have you constructed, financed, planned or conceived ? Where does your knowledge of construction come from ?
I’m also curious as to who exactly are these people with whom Donald Trump’s a “Bit of a joke” ?
Is he a Joke to the thousands of workers, contractors, suppliers (including some of the world largest corporations ) tenants, bankers and employees (many of whom have worked for him most of their lives) ?
The Trump Organization’s over 500 business entities operates in nearly 45 countries, (including Arab) is he a joke everywhere ?
If so he’s an astonishingly successful “joke” !
Without wishing to be impolite, I would suggest that you really know very little about Trump or his business, except from media gossip. I don’t think you have the slightest concept of the business environment in which Trump operates, and what knowledge you think you possess is based solely on your own prejudice.
If I’m wrong, please correct me.
Construction, Development, and Commercial Real Estate promotion, are tough industries. Disputes are common and often long running.
Failure of individual projects is not unusual common with the size of a conglomerate like the Trump Organization.
Projects are considered little more than product lines. If they don’t work, he simply shuts them down, or sells and moves on, in exactly the same way a manufacturer will shed unsuccessful products.
Your description of Trump the Mafiosi, is kinda silly. You make him sound like a house builder our of a hollywood movie !
The sort of development Trump is involved in is very complex, involving major corporation, lawyers,governments, layers of contractors, and major bankers. Such behaviour wouldn’t be tolerated, let alone be effective.
I would be amazed if Trump could assemble the sort of ‘muscle’ required to intimidate a NYC union, or Labour contractor !
While it is true that the ability to forget nothing that is read or heard, or observed, would carry with it a curse when it comes to the human ideal of forgiving and forgetting digital computing and analysis is based on an uncompromising memory. No doubt Talleyrand’s musings would have applications with information gathering today. But appearances can be deceiving. It is usually fruitless to insult someone, but I have no similar reverence for ideas, which can be idiotic. If you want to take personal possession and identify with such ideas, that is on you.
The difference between us is that you serve your own interests foremost which strongly tend to encompass an elitist philosophy, (perhaps understandably) and while I am somewhat eclectic in my politics, my philosophy is slightly broader than the 1%. You would bend logic and reason to your goals while I can use logic and reason to discover my somewhat changing goals.
So you want to make the definition of “mandate” the example and centerpiece of your “logic” and “reasoning.” If only I had the patience and interest to allow you to increase your wager, but I am game and I can also allow it to be an illustration for idiotic thinking. Most people I know are far more intelligent than I. You might be among that group. But a common failing of intelligent people is that they are lazy. They get part of the way through something and become bored. So I make up for my limited mental incapacity with the tenaciousness of a snapping turtle (once it bites down you generally have to kill it before it will let go.)
I will accept your quoted definitions of “mandate” … but lets just take a careful, tenacious look at what this means. Just the first definition will be sufficient, “1. An official order or commission to do something.” You take the election as equivalent to “the official order” ok fair enough, but that is where you stop, and in fairness where most people stop. But the second half of the definition “to do something.” does not intend to be a throw away. It does not mean to do anything or everything. It is not “carte blanche” The example given is “‘a mandate to seek the release of political prisoners’” in this case the “something” is “to seek the release of political prisoners.” It is very specific. Orders as in military orders tend to be that way. Trump made many statements. Of all politicians, of all time, his statements were more vague than most. Also, no where on the ballot was anyone voting on building a wall, or closing the borders to immigrants. The vote was for a person. (we think.) Not a policy. Some say it was simply “for change.”
At the very best we might “infer” a mandate if the issues were narrow and specific and the victory was a landslide. Neither of which was the case. So by the very definition you provided there is no mandate in the case of Trump. Assuming so is lazy thinking that mushes together definitions and assumptions with a personal agenda. Ah, I should have wagered for you to supply an electric car for Craig… But, I don’t forget…
What other interesting utterances are you clinging to like your moral fabric depends upon them? You suggest that the environment does not care about the author and imagine a billionaire beneficiary. Dreaming aside, you go on to surprisingly say, “The environment only cares about the improvement.” Unless you adhere to “Gaia theory” then I would suggest that the environment does not care about improvement, dis-improvement, more CO2 or less CO2 it does not care about you and does not care about humanity. And that should make people very frightened. It can be like a mousetrap. When you spring the mechanism it snaps. It is a mechanism that does not care what is under the spring. Truly it does not care if you are a billionaire or a pauper, but the billionaires will probably be able to hide under the crushing paupers for a tiny tick in the geological clock.
I will grant you that Trump is malleable. But that doesn’t mean, I am dreaming he has a heart of gold. No, it only means that the first hammer to come along will make a dent. The closest political advisers seem to be refugee creatures of the black lagoon he promised to drain in his first 100 days. Political demonstrations are another form of hammer. Lets see if they can make a dent. I am willing to be surprised by any sign of an impact.
IN respect to the topic Optimism in the Wake of Trumpism….
The Best Option is to Stand Your Ground with what you have, Stand Tall – Lean forward into Your Goals – and deliver Value – Work thru the Strong Headwinds and do it with Good Humanity
Onward Mates
Breath,
Setting aside all your self-congratulatory condescension, I would suggest that a mandate to be President, is that simple. Take the oath of office, (and all that implies) and perform the duties of President for the term proscribed.
That’s all the Constitution states, nothing more, nothing less.
You are correct to dislike my use of an Anthropomorphism. I dislike such terms myself and try to avoid using them. However, in this case it seemed appropriate.
You are correct in stating that most of us care about the environment because of the effect on human beings, (maybe also aesthetic love of the planet and all it’s living creatures).
But the point I was making remains valid. It doesn’t really matter whether a woman’s sewing collective, benign billionaire, Government or humblest individual helps introduce cleaner technology while practicing conservation. Nor does it matter how small or humble the contribution, it’s all valuable.
The ‘moral worth’ of individual, doesn’t matter. It’s the deed that counts, not the donor.
I’m astonished to be called elitist for persistently pleading for more inclusive conduct ! I will welcome anyone (even creatures from the Black Lagoon) if it will assist in the adoption of clean technology and better environmental practices.
Marco, you provided a definition and it’s now clear that you are not using the very definition you provided. “Mandate” does not refer to your new definition of “general duties.” In this case the situation clearly does not allow for a “mandate” for a conservative agenda, although for political purposes and for private reasons this may also be claimed by self interested parties. So either your understanding is wrong and or you also are making up anything you want and to my point that is according to your own private beliefs and agenda.
Was I being self-congratulatory? Absolutely, I imagined myself dancing on the grave of your definition. (Some things are hard to kill.) But it was as a mirror caricature. A reflection of your own attitude in another effort to get through your armor plating.
Condescension, not on my part, hardly. You are like a force of nature and remind me a great deal of a good friend from “dane unda” who owns a container company. I think we first met in Cairns, but spent more time in NZ. He is very definitely an “Aussie Rules” kind of player. – cont.
Check out these articles on how “mandate” is defined:
https://talkingpoliticsjomc.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/how-do-presidents-claim-a-mandate-if-such-a-thing-exists/
http://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-faction/2016/5/12/11663032/trump-mandate-power
http://rappnews.com/2013/12/26/jacksons-anti-bank-mandate/126857/
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-mandate-debate-looks-past-clintons-popular-vote-victory
Obviously there are differing definitions.
Frank, There are many possible considerations, which is why the most effective response is to use the definition and source provided to refute the claim. The articles seem to agree on the basic definition, but explain it by emphasizing different aspects.
The first article is most detailed and still is not a complete assessment. Clearly it is a complex issue and very likely to be used as political rhetoric as one article suggested to support legitimacy in an otherwise unclear election result.
Frank,
So lots of people with lots of differing opinions, how surprising !
I think the dictionary definition is the most practical. Trump has a mandate to hold the office of President and execute the terms of his oath of office as defined in the Constitution.
But Mrs. Clinton holds the mandate since she received approximately one million more votes than Trump. Of course there is nothing unusual about holding an office without a mandate. For centuries, divine right kings did just that.
A president should, when making decisions, consider what percentage of votes he or she received. If he or she has received a very small majority, or a negative majority, then he or she should consider very carefully those on the other side.
Well, i heard that Trump doesn’t want to upend the solar tax subsidies, so that’s probably good enough. By the end of his terms, science will deliver better renewables for cheaper. So, I’ll stand for trump for making the U.S. stronger by use of his often hated determination.
Dear Frank, Breath on Wind, Cameron , Kathryn , Robert and Craig
Value your shared and well developed verbal positions on coping with the Dark Clouds that are blowing into our Paths. Good discourse
Good exchange and debate with our Aussie Mate Marco Polo who in true to form presents many a Traditional position in this subject. You are consistent Marco.
Marco , Breathe really called you out in a polite manner. I share his conclusion that you speak from some sort of Upper Class Privileged position from a long ago relic of history system and structure of economics and society.
You make excuses or over rationalizations for Far too many things.
You apply a model or structure that yes has some Wisdom from History in it but it no longer apply’s to American Society in 2016 Period End of Story. Much of the World as well as societies are more open.
Marco I concur that many in the so called Green Political Movement are arrogant and full of them selves and some even do run roughshod over other classes of people who do not agree or accept their Strident positions. I myself and some of my colleagues have encountered it over the years and we been digging in the trenches for close to 40 years. Regrettably some of that happens and it tends to happen in every Movement or change period.
Trumpism its Roots and what happened has much much more to do with Multiple Socio- Politico – Economic Winds of Change. Your premise that trumpism is a victory over arrogant Extremist Greens is a simplistic and most Un convincing Premise. Flawed thru and thru!!! not worthy of serious analysis.
Hillly billy the Compromised Compromiser was a lightening rod force for fracking all over Europe and also SE Asia as Sec of State. So she is no environmentalist of the sort you criticize.
Trumpism is not solely the result of this extremism as you claim. It is just a small small part of it.
It is the end result of 35 years or more of excessive Neo Liberalism and RepubliCON Elite oriented economic policies that have left far too many of our educated and non educated workers behind. Undermined the good things the central government did for all its citizens. Also the social and economic consequences of the Sorrows of Empire coming home to roost!
The Democrats got freaked out by Reagan the first disrupt er that came upon us in 1980 . The Dems became Republicon Lite with their DLC Clinton wing of Party and they lost their Soul. They bought into the Neo Liberalism that spread Globally and as long as the higher tech economy was doing good they thought they wee doing good for all. the cooperated with the Republicons in advancing the cause of the upper elites. The Dems still throw a few bones to the lower classes while the GOP peddles tax cuts as social candy.
The reagan revolution led to shrinking of social programs and increase in private prisons , hyper militarism and the complete rigging of the tax system to favor both Corporate and Upper Income interests. It also instituted a covert racial political system that is used to manipulate the voters in certain states which created intra state and social divisions.
Our media was consolidated (clinton boy helped with that in 1996) and the dereg of banking rules at the GOP bidding was enabled with him.
The difference is the RepubliCONS are masters of manipulating and disguising their Failed Policies and nothing sticks on them as their corporate allies in the Media cover for them , much more than just false equivalences they deploy to create smoke and confusion within the electorate! Their mastery over the feeble minds of the electorate alow them to distance themselves from many of the major transfers of wealth and good jobs and their failed military mis adventures that driven up our national debt!
Once the media was taken over the dumbing down of american discourse went into high gear. They also stopped teaching Civics in most schools in the 1980’s .
News and Serious Journalism went into decline so the public became less informed and objective surveys of many a trumper voter will show a serious Ignorance of Black ( right) and White ( wrong) in respect to most of serious issues. They even take pride in saying that a expert is wrong and cant be trusted. This is a social back lash buzz saw that would make any candidate who is competent struggle to get thru the mental fog that engulfs such an electorate!
The DNC corona-ted a flawed career politician that brought serious baggage to the match. There were better options and the best thing that can come out of this in the short run is the Exit of the Clintons from the Power position time for them to leave the stage.
Their parting gift would be to take $50 million to Flint Mich and donate it to fix the ruined water works for the people. Their pay to play foundation has plenty in the bank to cover it. That would perhaps cement their Legacy in a better Light perhaps?
The Primary Campaign
The process in which they did this was corrupt and biased against B Sanders (who actually had poll leads over trumper) at various stages of the campaign. I believe Frank, Breath and / or Cameron all have said this. Many a black male voter regrets blindly voting for hilly in the primary once they learned who Bernie Sanders was.
Marco you reject it but it is true Bernies message matched up with the mood for change within the electorate. Many of the angry white men who voted for trumper voted for Bernie and liked him. He is not a member of the DNC Neo Liberal Elite and his sincerity shined through across all races.
Obama despite being a fine Orator and well liked was much too humble a President at times. He tries to hard to be the great U niter to heal the racial divide in this fractured country that still suffers from systemic Racism.
Marco this racism lies at the foundation of trumpsters big Lie success as he exploited that aspect of our culture to the Max.
Obama tolerated 5 years of trumpers Birth ism BS and other racist positions. Trumper was recruiting racist , mysognist support long before he announced he was running.
Trump should have been called out in Public and discredited years ago. Obama had the means to do this but false etiquette limited his messaging or actions.
Obama never went to Ohio, Wisc., Mich and re Educated the working auto industry workers that he and Joe Biden saved the auto industry and now they are working. ETc Etc. DNC Elites got away from selling their successes.
The lost votes in these states was around 110,000 total Marco and many of them were voting for racially inspired fears – they voted against the party that put food on the table because of distorted social/ cultural / racial divisions in the US.
Trumper being the cagey deal maker he is did analyze the field of battle and he saw a bunch of GOP clowns running and knew the public was sick of their CON game. Then he saw that the DEMs were going to run a Flawed Anointed Candidate in Clinton whose baggage train is too long and requires too much leaps of faith to trust. That is his Brilliance I concede. He exploited this situation extremely well.
The Media gave him close to $ 3 billion in free advertising, they created him and while he almost hung himself w his filth and racial comments he controlled the Buzz expertly. Lil Elitist hilly billy fell into the angry and insulted woman mode of just spending most of her speaking time on trying to repeat all the bad things trumper had said and done.
If she did not have her extensive baggage train “SSS lots of them. Maybe this would have worked.
But given her situation she got people thinking about character too much and Not Policy issues. Hilly billy stopped SELLING the good middle and lower class policy points in the Dem platform. Fatal Mistake!!
So instead of telling people what a vote would do for them positively she got too negative and was trapped in it. Trump was brilliant in setting these traps also plus her mega arrogance or both perhaps.
Trump even bragged that he had low information voters , uneducated people, no interest in facts etc. ( this is why us Progressives are technically accurate in calling trumpers Idiots, Slobs as they are to a large degree). It is what It Is ! The percentage of the voters who have these qualities was much higher than the usual split.
While Hillys deplorable statement was alienating it was true. The bloc of trumps voters were attracted to him for racial and broken social status reasons. They wanted to teach Hilly and the Elites a Lesson which they did. It was not for Policy.
Another fact about this election is that over 800 Polling Places were closed by the GOP in some key states. So voter suppression explains some of the reduced turnout for the DEMs. That reduction in 4 Blue Wall states may have been the difference.
Trump is a reality tv showman and much of america that is poor and dumbed down watch the tv for their main entertainment. So he fits the culture better now.
The Saturday Night Live comedy political parody skits with Trump was a bad thing as it made trumper more normalized in the eyes of many viewers especially Millennials. They saw little difference between the candidates so their passion for voting went down and less voted.
As for poor working class white voters – it was the racial issues that drew them to support the trumpster in droves , but the real interesting fact about the profile of the trumper voter is that FOX news a conservative propaganda station researched that the average trump voter income was $71,000 yr. so much for working class America?!!
Marco you talk of a Mandate – Hilly has won the popular vote its now over 2,000,000 plus votes as votes in California and Penn are being counted still. So your premise of a mandate has NO Basis.
There is no mandate , voter suppression helped him win as did racism along with Hilly s incompetence and her negative baggage .
So Trumper tells big tales to get elected and now the moments of Truth will set in. There are many analysts who say if he does not do some of the controversial things like the building the wall, Deporting immigrants, and taxing trade – some angry trumpster rednecks may come after him. He worked them up into a Frenzy so he may have much to Walk or Back down from. Once the angry types realize that Trump is the Elitist which he is then game might be over Who knows.
We have a flawed Electoral system – a ongoing economic and technical transformation that is going to leave more people Behind. rural America will lose more jobs and population so the red base is shrinking. Progressives run the cities now even in red texas.
So the Trumper is the One who will be Drinking from Toxic Chalices and not Hilly.
We shall see. There was a Convergence and Perfect Storm in place that allowed a Knave like trumper to exploit and that he did. He was aided by mega doses of DARK MONEY injected into the Senate and House and State races as vertical integration of GOP is strong.
The DNC will under go major re organization and the Old Guards need to step aside to go forward. Tinkering around the Margins will not have meaningful results.
America is in for interesting & challenging times .
We shall see how much was bluster and how much is flawed policy and veiled racism. Be aware Marco that the KKK is planning a Victory Parade in North Carolina in December. So the racist element I have alluded to in this posting is not my personal Bias .
In Wisconsin schools Friday, 5 adult Trumper men walked into grade schools going into class rooms and harassing Hispanic children. They also marched into a class room and verbally threatened a white lady teacher who had the decency to adopt two Hispanic children when their parents were killed in a accident. They threatened this teacher with going to the state Board and saying she harbors illegals! So the dirty Genies are out of the bottles due to trumperism. It is all around us daily in many states.
Monday night survey says 46 % of public is afraid of social clashes.
In conclusion I believe the Market Forces of the Green Energy sector to have matured to the point that they can survive a carbon policy revival – though there may be some regulatory policy damage done by GOP zealots who are stooges for DARK Money.
The Green Sector needs to focus on good business cases going forward.
Though i admire some of the ideas of progressives, i don’t think we can yet afford it. We need more jobs. Give the people receiving subsidy, jobs, if even the type that was so eagerly given by both parties to the cheaper areas of this planet. They have greater populations, they don’t need our jobs anymore! We can NOT afford to throw away monies to other countries and the UN in the stupid name of climate change!
Can we honestly build renewable energy to power the world with the tech we have now?
That’s akin to sending a world ship to the next star system when in just one generation later, a single “seed” ship could pass it up and colonize the system literally centuries sooner.
So progressivism (or whatever ism that unites) must become the end result, in order to have a unified world, like Star Trek, however, we’re just not quite there yet.
This, i guess, will be our inwardly self re-building phase for a few years. Hopefully, the trumpers will grow up and use this power to do what’s right instead of building more walls…
We must continue the pressure for science, without the all out subsidy for old (solar) tech!
We need dirt cheap solar, wind and batteries (since they are diffuse and have low capacity factor). We don’t have that yet so we might have to revert to advanced nuclear (for a while) if this little bit of global warming really does influence climate change to such the predictable alarmist levels cited by today’s progressives.
Scientists, otoh, are actually merely concerned. Probably because global warming is 1.2C per doubling and that is the only fact truly known as per the laws of physics regarding the GHG. That would be 1.2 x 1.8F in about 50 more years (or however long it takes humanity to pump a total of 560 ppm CO2 into the atmosphere).
I, in no way condone Trump’s apparent disregard for racism and am already starting to turn against my own previous applaud for hope toward his supposed rebuilding of this already great country.
Of course, others will say that Trump has nothing to do with racism.
However, it’s obvious that he’s against science, the very discipline that made this country great.
We have to make sure that he can’t cut any science research!
Silent,
Just a couple of points;
1) Upper Class Privileged position ? My only “inheritance” was a pile of debt, and a lot of unsought responsibility ! Whatever I have achieved in life is the result of my own efforts.
2) Bernie Saunders could never be elected in America. Trump is a phenomenon, a populist with some appeal. Whether he can convert that appeal into a solid base is doubtful, but it will be the measure of the man.
Bernie Saunders would unite all the right, and much of the centre-left against his campaign. The US will never except an openly avowed socialist candidate.
Saunders was a creature of an over-excited media and completely erroneous polls. Working class white voters are not so concerned with class warfare issues, as the liberal elite believe. In fact as Trump has shown , like Reagan before him, they will vote for someone they can identify as being one of their own. Despite his wealth, Trump comes across as a construction worker in a good suit ! (He’s what they’d like to be).
Bernie Saunders is just some old guy from Vermont ranting on to a bunch of college kids, looking like some old college lecturer. They’re not buying what he’s preaching.
The problem with the polls was they designed the questions to fit the answers they expected. People answered what they thought was right to say, not what was in their hearts.
My training as an analyst teaches me to carefully observe as aspect, and people involved in the dynamics of any situation. I try to understand each of the factions to gain a complete appraisal. This requires emptying my mind of my own preferences, and striving to be purely objective.
Were I an American, I would not have voted for Trump (and certainly not Saunders), for all her faults HC was the best qualified. But Trump will be President, and it’s time to accept that reality and try to make the best of the future.
For environmentalists, it means learning a lesson and disengaging from the political rhetoric and start rebuilding credibility with solid, persuasive, successful projects.
C’mon Silent, forget all the political stuff, c’mon down to where the really important stuff is being done. Help rebuild the environmental movement without all the extraneous angst ! . There are so many exciting, positive project to support, forget about what you’re against, concentrate on what you are for !
The Trump phenomenon will run it’s course, but there is just too much work to do promoting the acceptance of clean tech to waste time raging against the incumbent of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
@ Robert and Mate Marco
Robert I too like your aspirations for advancing tech and related economic growth that is needed . But over simplification and bumper sticker slogans will not alone Lift All Boats !
Some facts re Jobs –
1. Since 2008 the Wind sector has grown to close to 80,000 jobs nationwide. Many are in so called Red states. The over whelming majority are higher paid jobs too. The industry has revived old line industrial too and die and machine shop blue collar jobs.
2. The supply chain is majority domestic based as the shipping costs for components from low cost foreign suppliers does not make economic sense.
3. Solar industry from 2009 now has over 220,000 jobs and growing rapidly. Your tax dollars are getting a good rate of return on the investment in Community College and other Training schools.
4. Solar is becoming a good place for veterans leaving the military as the skills needed match up in some cases.
5. The end use energy efficiency market creates demand for HVAC , Water htrs, Lighting, foam insulation from petroleum , inspection fees , engineering services etc.
5. The financial sector is making good money making Loans – people with good credit ratings are getting solar or energy upgrade loans for as low as 3.5 % interest now.
6. Solar penetration is around 1 5 in residential so if the market expands the employment numbers will just double or triple.
There are more people in the solar and wind sector working than the 100 year old coal sector. The 4 major coal co are all bankrupted and cant honor their pension or retiree health care programs while their Elite Executives all get handsome bonus checks for their corporate malfesance ! Is Trumper going to correct these imbalances?
7. The legacy hydro sector which gets ignored or overlooked often is now upgrading old facilities with new up rated generators these create serious industrial turbine opportunities.
8. Small scale hydro is being installed in rivers and water ways where no generators were ever used. So we are fully utilizing these water ways going forward.
The estimates for this sector are 50 GW of power capacity Nation wide or 50,000 megawatts. Clean power and low cost once the capital cost is retired and there is little inflation as the fuel is FREE.
All of these sectors have helped the US economy and improved the tax revenues as well – The consumers who have bought into these technologies now have more money in their pockets so they have more money to spend or save. Spurring economic growth and other employment.
Bear in mind that the Fossil Fuel co which have been subsidized for over 100 years and counting have laid off thousands of supply workers not because anyone said to stop using their product. It was because the so called mythical free market reduced the volume of fuel they buy. The lower prices for fuel prevent the producing co’s from making a profit. They have a real challenge as most new supplies of fossil fuel ( not coal) cost more than the end use market price. Its called the Laws of Diminishing Returns – but forgive me if I sound like a over educated elitist or some other bumper sticker meaningless slogan – it just is the way the economics of the fossil fuel industry now operate in.
Go to the Caribbean Islands and you will find close to 40 Off Shore Drilling Rigs all laid up in Ports as the operating costs are too high due to the global oil market conditions. It costs close to $30,000 a day to keep them laid up in Port but there is No Demand for them in the market right now.
How is the Trumper going to change these dynamics ??? Love to learn something!!! Are his Legions of angry boosters going to go there and protest them and scream UN Lock Them Un Lock them ???
Robert I think it is Preposterous to lay blame at Progressives for these conditions. Beyond the Pale brother !
One can not sell oil if the market is not buying it at historic levels.
The name of the game is efficiency at all levels and the new power plants like natural gas plants are going from 40 % thermal efficiency to 65 % and maybe 70 % . Industrial Giants like GE and Siemens and others are pushing the technological advances.
They might even find ways to re burn CO 2 exhaust in the plants thereby limiting the damaging impacts of fossil fuels going forward ( are you paying attention Marco) All of this is in response to the Excellent Market Share advances that SOLAR and Wind have made. So the Fossil fuel guys are responding in a positive manner. I salute them. More and more CHP Plants with thermal efficiency over 85 % with Tri Generation outputs are going in all over the US .
Many go in small old coal plants at colleges – these relics of the past are being pulled out and the college Operating budget is now being reduced because of the improved efficiency gain from the old coal of around 25 % maybe up to 85 % with Tri Generation formats.
Fiscally responsible actions any way one looks at it. Cleans up the air also so health costs go down!
Now Mate Marco – I accept your explanation of humble beginnings – but its not your estate size I refer to – it is as Breath pointed out your consistent position of defending the status quo order of things in all these discussions. Minimizing the excesses of the Ruling class as if it is their Divine Right to abuse a more kinder middle ground approach.
I clearly stated that I too reject some of the phony greenie weenie arrogance of the extremists. If my facts make me too strident then I am dismayed as I consider you a Factual based person . So dont confuse the two my Mate.
So lets be clear in that respect.
Slogans will not stop the transition movement underway. Strong market forces and energy cost economics will allow a sizable slice of the market to become solar and wind Globally. The ball is in the other fuels courts now and they are beginning to respond as I outlined above.
That Mandate thing for Trump is what got my attention. The numbers continue to climb for Popular vote for Hillary over trumper. No Mandate for him.
He is not a Populist just a cagey smart CON man that took advantage of a Convergence situation. I too accepted Hilly as the more qualified CANDIDATE ETC no doubt. The demand for change from electorate over whelmed her centrist Elitist perceptions by masses. Many Dems were not motivated by her. Robert and I align there.
But her Arrogance and mis reading of the situation and poor execution on the Field of Honor led to her undoing.
Your attacks on Bernie are simplistic as he remains the most popular of all the candidates. Bar None. He was selling Americans on the Common Sense Truths that they can have some of the nice social benefits that Europeans have if we would only make our tax and spending systems more equitable. The DNC took him down not the voters.
He had support across all lines of society except the Uber gangsters on Wall St. Was all that he said right , NO but he tapped into the un rest within the Electorate in a much more Positive Manner in contrast to the trumper. Bernie did not align with racist, bigots, uneducated and mis informed voters to manipulate and infuriate the electorate.
Trumper perfected the Art of Selling fear so well that he over came his obvious shortcomings , great tactics.
Marco – it is sad that you reject the racial and cultural divisions that were exposed in the trump campaign and linger on in America now. If facts like 800 poll closings and the harassment of various segments of the population by trumpeters are not recognized by you- then perhaps other issues motivate you. My facts are quite reasonable and have nothing to do with Progress ism. They are just facts concerning the flawed election process.
Racist Jim Crow practices have been revived in America and the media is silent as usual.
We concur that Hillary was more qualified given the demands of the Presidents role – but her faults got in her own way like many of us observers predicted. The Anointed One – maybe now she will learn that maybe the Public does want her to go play with her grandchildren and leave the quest to be the first woman President. She had the inside track and still could not pull it off.
I dont think the trumpers policies will be good but I will find a way to carry on with my affairs and see what happens basically Ignore him. there are plenty Millions out there who will oppose him and the Toxic Chalices are going to be Many!
Maybe america will become Great Again in a different form ? LOL !!!
Best Wishes in your projects
Be careful if the trump empire reaches out to Aussie Land – and solicits joint venture partners – track record with partners is not good Mate!
Silent,
I applaud, and share, your enthusiasm for adoption of clean technology.
However, I think you must agree that a less combative approach must be adopted. It’s not good enough to hate the oil companies without being able to provide realistic alternatives.
Solar and Wind installations may prove valuable, or of limited value. I’m sure you would agree that the US (and the world) can’t afford any more fiasco’s like corn/palm oil ethanol.
Enthusiasm for alternate energy is all very well, but it would would be foolish to create yet another vast industry dependent of taxpayer/consumer subsidies making the economy less competitive, while becoming impossible to adequately monitor or control without arousing fierce political opposition from powerful vested interests.
Constant, careful, unemotional and objective analysis will be very important in determining the on-going value on any new technology.
If all the new jobs in solar and wind are created from just selling and installing foreign made panels and turbines, then those jobs must inevitably diminish.
You are correct in assuming no US President can roll back globalization. Globalization is a product of modern technology and the information age. Trump may use such rhetoric to gain a better deal for the US, but in reality if he tried to implement his more extreme protectionist policies, he would quickly learn the folly.
I’m sorry to learn of instances in the US where a call for strong border control and respect for law and order have been used as an excuse by some to practice racism. Racism is just an excuse for bullying,and has always been abhorrent.
The right to free speech should be used responsibly. On the other hand pretending that any group in society should be free from valid criticism and analysis for fear of seeming racist is a form of inverse racism.
An example of “politically correct’ behaviour resulting in a negative effect, is the refusal to fund US scientists researching the possibility of causal link between high levels of Melanin and the HIV virus.
The possibility such research might save millions of lives was not outweighed by the fear such research could be misinterpreted as racist.
Prejudice is a very difficult discussion for any society, especially in the US. Opponents or supporters of almost political initiatives seek to involve some fear of racism to intimidate their opponents. Sometimes valid, on other occasions it’s just a cheap tactic.
There’s no doubt racists are always seeking to use any discussion concerning race to peddle their insecurity and hatred. These bullies will turn violent, if they feel they can do so without consequences.
It’s a sad aspect of human society that many of the followers of racist movements, have genuine grievances against a society that they feel has betrayed them. The leaders of such movements cynically distort these grievances against a helpless target.
In relation to Bernie Saunders. in my opinion, Bernie Saunders is a well-intentioned, honest, hard working politician. What ever his politics he had earned the respect of not just his supporters, but many of his opponents. He is a truly genuine example of the best of the leftist political generation arising in from the 60’s.
It’s also true that his appeal evokes memories of that golden era of optimism and hope, when economics seemed simple and social issues resolvable. That appeal must be irresistible to the young of Vermont and coastal urban centres where prosperity created by the information age has kept alive the dreams of the Kennedy era.
But to the heartland, rightly or wrongly, Bernie Saunders comes across as just another East Coast Jewish intellectual supported by a bunch of privileged college kids.
The heartland wouldn’t believe that a politician from Vermont would get tough with the PRC,strong on border protection, or even terrorism. They wouldn’t appreciate many of Bernie’s fine qualities and his sense of responsibility and honesty.
To them he’s part of the problem, just some old guy with outdated class warfare idea’s. The heartland wanted the all singing, all dancing, incomprehensible Donald. A Man who talked like them, made mistakes, and seemed just a richer, luckier version of themselves.
Traditional republicans would have united against Bernie Saunders and poured money and organization against him, which they didn’t against HC.
Would Bernie Saunders be a better President ? IMHO, he definitely would. But even that doyen media outlet of the left, The Guardian, concedes he couldn’t get elected.
I was the one who said Mark my words, it (RE)
will become exponential.
Of course, we still need better tech and manufacturing tech for the diffuse sources to actually out compete NG and coal on a 24/7 basis, to become thee primary sources of energy.
His panel shouldn’t be allowed to cut any science research and i would hope that even his supporters would grow up and realize that it is science that made this country great.
I did not mean to put blame on the progressives for today’s problems, however, i do not like some of the supposed solutions to global warming. I want pure science research to definitely take precedence to merely throwing money at acclimating to it, for example.
Another slogan:
Building more walls won’t solve the problem… of sea level rise, too.
Silent,
Can you document you statements regarding power plant efficiencies exceeding 70%? As near as I can tell, one of the world’s most efficient power plant is in Denmark and has an efficiency of only 49%. The step from 49% to > 70% seems rather extreme especially considering what the Denmark plant does to achieve 49% efficiency. If I correctly recall, that requires a boiler pressure of > 4000 PSI and is super super super critical.
You may want to check the formula relating efficiency to temperature using a Carnot engine, which actually cannot be made, to get some idea of what the maximum possible efficiency would be using a heat engine.
Here is information on the Denmark plant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedøre_Power_Station
Good Morning Frank
Re New gas Plant thermal Efficiencys a good starting place is the Sept Issue of Power Engineering Trade Journal . The August and Sept 2016 issues have good explanations of the current capabilities and where they are going.
The Sept issue talks extensively about Super Critical S CO2 capabilities for either natural gas or gassified coal can be converted into hydrogen for fuel or reburning of CO2 in custom plants.
The National Energy Technology Laboratory ( NETL) is sheperding innovations for improved gas turbine efficiency. They are in collaboration with the US DOE and numerous private sector research partners in these efforts that are bearing good results.
Combined Neat & power (CHP) trade journal also provides several examples of the trends in better utilization of gas and bio gas fuels. CHP is real strong in Europe as gas i smore expensive so the need for better thermal burn efficiency is the driver.
Now its is expanding in the US beyonbd the traditional cluster in Houston and Louisianna Petro Chemical complex where it has been concentrated. The academic college campus market and hospital market are prime targets the economics make real good sense in those applications.
Those types of facilities have high annual thermal loads and can balance out both heat and cooling needs thereby making the economics of the capital investments positive.
Most issues from 2014 to the present give good case examples.
CHP in Germany is another piece of the puzzle in the effort to integrate the large volume of wind / solar generation without building large dirty base load or expensive plants to back up the Grid. It does help that the heating load is high over there.
Tri Generation is power, heat and cooling all at the same time the best there is!
All Bets are Off that the typical trumper would have any clues to some of these details or technical trends in the Power Industry. Facts lose out to Blind Emotions !
Silent,
I was hoping that you could post links to sources which indicate that > 70% efficiency is possible. Again, the highest efficiency power plant I know about is only 49% efficient. The most efficient engines I know about are Diesel engines made by Wärtsilä, a Norwegian company. They are up to 55% efficient, fuel to flywheel. With a generator with 96% efficiency, the overall efficiency would be only 53% efficiency, but engines of that type would not be used for power plants.
When power plants can be located in populated areas, utilizing waste heat can greatly increase the efficiency. So, if the waste heat is utilized, then > 70% efficiency would be possible, but not otherwise. Also, there is a limit to how far the waste heat can be transported.
Regarding Trump, about all we can hope for is that he won’t be as destructive as he appeared in his campaigns. There are checks and balances in our government which can reduce the damage of which he is capable. The Constitution provides for impeachment in case of high crimes and misdemeanors, but whether Trump “University” or other things would qualify is unclear. The Watergate saga showed that presidents are not immune to the consequences of their actions.
The next few years could be very interesting, and not necessarily in a positive way.
Frank that Avedore Plant in Denmark is a excellent multi fuel plant. They claim almost 94 % total fuel utilization at times.
Not bad for 1990 technology built ERA. I am sure there have been modifications over the years to accommodate the use of Bio Mass.
The GE and Siemen’s Flex Gen IRCC integrated renewable combined cycle gas plants are the ones that can load track excellently versus previous generation of CC gas units. They are at 63.5 % now by Siemens and GE claims 65 % next year. Utilities building CC gas plants need to spec this design and save their customers fuel costs as well as extend gas supplies and reduce some what harmful fracking etc.
There are other trends in the turbine area that clearly indicate the acceptance of R E Wind & Solar they are preparing to back it up and compliment the resource in modular formats.
Thanks for pointing out the Avedore Plant a great one.
Silent,
I wrote my previous post before reading your latest post. Being able to utilize waste heat can greatly improve efficiency. However, because of limited to the distance with which they can move waste heat, it is not possible to utilize all the waste heat from all power plants. And probably only the ones burning gas should be located in urban areas where the waste heat can be utilized.
For many decades, some large buildings have generated their own power and utilized the waste heat thereby achieving high efficiency. The waste heat can even be used for air conditioning, using the lithium bromide / water absorption cycle. However, absorption systems generally have a coefficient of performance 3. Thus, using the waste heat for air condition, although worth while, is less effective in boosting efficiency than one might suppose.
Franks I don’t have soft copy information. they mail me hard copies monthly.
Just google the Power engineering.com and the list back issues and you will find the articles quite easily.
Yes Warsilla and now GE are coming on strong with RICE units Reciprocating Internal combustion engines that are being grouped together from 5 megs to 9.5 w GE and then the grouping of multiple units is used to modular-ly buildup to what is needed and to adjust for low load capacity factors. Minimizes large units being under used. etc.
RICE units have a flat performance curve in respect to emissions, efficiency and can operate well either low or medium or high speed fast ramp also.
Sorry I dont have soft copies.
Frank in respect to the Trumperian Era we enter – I will say that I share your concerns and like the way that you phrase it.
As I said I plan on just going about my business and watch from sidelines. I will let the political activists take it on ….I am sure the clashes will be many and multiple.
The volume of Toxicity is Voluminous for 1 Chalice is all I know.
Both Interesting and Challenging times are blowing right at us for sure.
All Bets are Off !
Yes Frank those GAS heat Adsorption chillers have their drawbacks as does every system.
their main economic and environmental benefits are both at the end user levels ( when utilities reward you for reduced capacity requirements as your AC peak demand is avoided and it reduces new capacity additions cost). the environmental benefit is the reduction of emissions at the power plant and also the pollution caused by the extraction of the resource.
Engineers I know say the newer Adsorption Units have made improvements. It all depends on large scale applications mostly.
Frank, the confusion lies in the difference in the way efficiency is counted. A thermal power plant will produce electricity. Efficiency is derived from the useful power produced (electricity) over the energy inputs. 30% to 40% is typical for a coal fired power plant with some gas turbine plants pushing out around 60%. Excess heat is part of the wasteful by product.
A CHP plant (combined heat and power) Uses the same formula but useful power is now the electricity and some of the former waste product “heat” so naturally the efficiency is higher.
Pollution might be the same overall but it can also be allocated over more products and it could appear that such a plant produces less pollution per unit of electricity.
“Efficiency becomes less important to overall capital expenditure when we start considering RE plants that don’t have the operating expense of burning fossil fuels and don’t produce pollution as part of their operations.
Check out this article on the election results for which my sister emailed me the link, and the comments which follow. I agree with the article about 99.44%.
https://chartwellwest.com/2016/11/12/what-now/
This discussion has multiple life’s and siblings as well. Must be the topic touches many and is motivating.
Marco Mate thanks for acknowledging some of Bernie Sanders finer attributes. He was the less flawed character wise of all the candidates but the DNC had the stack Stacked for HRC.
IMHO and yours we recognize thru the chatter that Bernie flaws and all would have most likely beaten the trumper. he appealed to wide cross section etc.
Although Bernie’s youth had some extreme political mechanization s , the Red Fear and smear machine might have labeled him a closet communist or something . Ran ADs like that he took a honey moon to Moscow ya know! Its possible. Anyways the election is over and its academic now.
The media was against him. But I dont think the media is legitimate anymore as they are complicit in many of what is wrong with our system now.
The Late Neil Postman’s Amusing Ourselves To Death is a great expose from 1980’s on the decline of the american news Media. It can be sourced on internet Amazon I hear.
We both understand what happened many others do also. The better qualified candidate lost out to the Big Drive for Change etc. So we agree.
I now see what you were saying about Mandate. Yes he has a legitimate mandate to take the office as he won the by the electoral vote rules.
But the popular vote is still growing greater for HRC so she has a popular vote mandate.
Maybe the electoral vote thing might get revised in the years going forward. Many believe it is outdated for modern society.
If you followed the back and forth between Frank and I and now Breath on wind came back you will read me extolling the virtues of the advanced gas turbines that have entered the market place and present new forms of competition for other formats including R E and your beloved Nuclear. Lots of Praise for CHP systems and how they are a good piece of the generation puzzle.
So why do you accuse me of bashing Oil and being un realistic . Just because I point out very real challenges like the Laws of Diminishing returns and Idled drilling rigs. Idled not by anyone’s policy but because the market for higher priced deep sea oil is in the tank and will be there for awhile it most likely seems.
Dont Facts matter Anymore???
Here is another Vision re these matters- when oil pries rise again there will be more economic substitution . More diesel gen sets in remote villages switch over to solar and small scale wind – more EV ‘s sold into the market and continued replacement of the existing transportation fleet with higher MPG vehicles. This is normal market evolution and the Oil majors know this their Hay Day is over unless they go on a massive buying spree of competing fuel sources.
The racial aspect of this recent election hangs over the entire process like a Big Dark cloud – where it goes from here I don t know.
The scheduled Victory March is scheduled on the anniversary date of a similar KKK march in NC where a massacre of Blacks was conducted in the same county. Just a lil Historical Irony to ponder.
In closing I think we should go about our business be strong and expect some serious Headwinds perhaps. It will be sad if the Progress that has been made gets rolled back – I do expect many more Toxic Chalices as you originally thought would be Hillary’s burden.
So will the next step by the Trummper forces be to actually Try to Lock her Up! ????
I voted to nominate Bernard Sanders. Some of his ideas went a bit farther than I would like. However, the European experience with more government has, in most cases, been positive so if the government takes on a somewhat larger rôle, I don’t think that that has to be a problem although it could be if we don’t use good sense about it.
Although I wasn’t especially favorably impressed with Mrs. Clinton, I saw her as mediocre but capable of doing an adequate, though not impressive, job as president. Trump is unnerving. Hate crimes have already increased. Those whom he is interviewing for cabinet positions and other positions have records which make me uneasy.
This country is basically strong and capable of weathering considerable mismanagement, so I expect that we will get through this somehow. And, the president is not a dictator. Even though both houses of congress now have a Republican majority, there is still a limit to what those Republicans will tolerate, at least partly because all the members of the house and 1/3 of the senators know they will be facing elections in two years. Moreover, even though they will be a minority for the next two years, the Democrats are not helpless; they at least have the power of the filibuster in the senate.
Frank, probably the only thing worse than a Trump presidency along with a Republican Congress and Judiciary would be a Democratic party that had become so centrist that it offered no resistance. There will be absolutely no one else and no other policies to blame if things go badly.
Rather than any attempt at fiscal responsibility or good governance, I expect to see a great deal of robbing the cupboards, deficit spending, de-funding programs and reducing revenue leading to a smaller, bankrupt government so that the burden of digging us out of the hole falls on the next administration. At least, this is the pattern that has been followed in the past.
Hi Frank,
I appreciate your thoughts. I would suggest just two additional points to consider.
1) Although inevitably any debate concerning immigration must attract undesirable racist elements, it doesn’t mean no debate should take place.
I think you’ll agree one of the primary duties for any national state is to secure and control the integrity of its borders, and immigration policies.
The US is experiencing a very real border crisis.Bernie Saunders had no workable solution to this problem. ( probably because it’s not a priority in Vermont). Uncontrolled migration results in wide range of economic, social and security negatives.
Unfortunately, a ‘kumbaya’ attitude only produces a great degree of crueltyfor the migrant, friction with the local established population, and eventual breakdown in social order.
Orderly, controlled migration can produce a positive and enriching experience for nation states, despite initial teething problems. Uncontrolled migration inevitability leads to a negative experience and real damage, even destruction, of the existing society.
Controlling migration is increasingly difficult. Many of the requirements in enforcing control inevitably appear mean spirited, harsh and lacking in compassion.
Regrettably, there are no other options but a certain degree of strict resolution or it becomes impossible for those charged with enforcement to carry out their duty.
2) The European experience of increased government involvement has not been as universally positive as you might imagine, and advocates like Micheal Moore would like you to believe.
In recent decades most European nations have struggled to dismantle the economically negative inefficiencies of government controlled programs. Some nations have dismantled the worst aspects, while retaining modernized and milder versions of programs with beneficial aspects.
Some Europeans, Greece for example, are hopelessly addicted societies living on the charity of a fast disintegrating EU.
The US needs some reform, but should avoid accepting European models without very careful consideration and analysis.
I agree with your conclusions that a Trump Presidency will produce any major or lasting dramatic changes to US society. The spectre of Trump is largely an illusion, and should serve as a wake up cal for the revitalization of US public life.
Marcopolo,
Yes, illegal immigration is a problem. However, it has actually decreased. But let us consider why people are immigrating illegally. Although most people are unaware if it, immigrating legally can take many years; it is much more difficult than it needs to be. Many illegal immigrants are desperate. Men who cannot adequately support their families immigrate illegally so they can work in the U.S. and send money back to their families. It is not something that they want to do, but they feel that they have no choice
Then there are unaccompanied children who are sent to the U.S. by their families. In Guatemala, criminal gangs force children to join them and engage in criminal activities, so their desperate parents send the children to the US to live with a relative.
Many illegal immigrants are exceptionally hard workers and will take just about any available job until they manage to qualify for better jobs. Some parts of the U.S. have become very dependent on them. If you go to many construction here in New Mexico, you will hear Spanish being spoken almost exclusively. How many of the workers are here legally I don’t know; I don’t ask questions. I’ve had several favorable experiences with them and never any problems.
Here in New Mexico, about half of the residents have Spanish names such as Lopez, Gutierrez, Chavez, Martinez, Silva, Apodaca, Aragon, Castro, Garcia, Espinoza, Gallegos, Gomez, Gonzales, Madalena, Montoya, Salazar,Trujillo, etc. etc. That’s because during the Mexican American war (1846 – 1848), much of Mexico became part of the U.S. Many people here are bilingual and a few speak only Spanish.
In earlier times, the U.S. was very aggressive towards countries south of the border. Gun boat diplomacy was common. Although my knowledge of that part of history is probably short of what it should be, I can’t help but wonder of the poor state of those countries is at least partly the result of our previously aggressive foreign policies.
Of course illegal immigration is illegal. But legalities are not the only consideration. At one time slavery was legal and slaves who escaped to the North had to be returned.
What we really need is immigration reform so that there will be a guest worker program (New Zealand has one) making it possible for non-citizens to work temporarily in the U.S. subject to certain conditions. There is widespread, although not total, agreement that that is at least part of the solution, but getting Congress to act has so far been unsuccessful.
Here in New Mexico, over the objection of governor Suzana Martinez, a law was passed making it possible for undocumented immigrants to get driving permits. That enables them to get insurance and drive legally, but the driving permit cannot be used for legal identification. People who have adequate documentation (birth certificate, passport, etc.) can get regular driving licenses which can be used for legal identification. It was a step in the right direction.
The situation in Europe is different, but I do not see how it can be considered moral to lock people into a situation where many of them will be bombed or suffer extreme hardship because of war. And Australia is not doing a good job. Australia is forcing people to live under dangerous and appalling conditions in small island nations thereby causing a serious suicide and other problems while attempting to hide the problem.
Breath on Wind – re the improved efficiency of the CHP systems.
The issue of air emissions is another benefit of CHP or Co Gen systems.
1. The heat produced is at a higher efficiency than a standard boiler especially after boiler deration for age.
2. On site power generated avoids the line losses ( 12 to 16 % ) from long distance central power station . This avoids fuel wasted and its emissions. Lowered demand.
3. In TRI Generation Mode the air conditioning reduces peak demand from the utility once again and reduces the fuel burned / emissions from Peaking plants
These systems have a Net Benefit on the Grid and for the Environment.
In multi family units there can be hybrid water heating and space heating systems served by the CHP system and again boiler losses are avoided. From my Watch Tower society would be better off providing supportive CHP policies to encourage their usage across wider range of the market.
They can lead to Micro grids and RE ( solar / others ) interactions along with EV s interaction. This leads to a Transactive Grid everyone benefits.
Natural Gas needs to be burned in markets with higher end use value.
Silent,
Many of the things you mention can be economically justified which is why they are being done. It isn’t even new; it’s been done for decades.
One of the problems is that when a building is being constructed, the contractors have little interest in energy efficiency since they will not be paying the utility bills. In rental housing and also in commercial buildings where the businesses rent space, the owners are not interested in energy efficiency. To some extent building codes reduce that problem.
There is much more that could be done which could be economically justified.
@ Robert @ Marco that is great that you are recognizing the failures of the trumpster.
When he backs down from some of his extreme promises and does not deliver the Bacon as he yelled- there are Voices out there that say he wil get serious back lash from some of the Moronic rednecks that voted for him out of racial oriented RAGE, he may get the Richocet !!
Did not think Robert that you were in alignment with his racist tendencies, you like many other people long for some corrective changes . He over sold positive changes and got away with it as the other side did not sell very good.
Trust you see the positive impact on jobs and economy the Renewable s have had in just a short time frame. it will only grown and we need real jobs in america and not just fast food service jobs.
Thanks for clarifying
Mate Marco – you made a allegation that the RE cant help with lots of jobs in US as the products are made over seas.
Marco – as stated the major wind and the minor components for Wind are almost 95 % made in USA. Great for local economy. Obama won two gop leaning counties in Iowa because they have 3 wind related manufacturing facilities and he came out to speak to them and their gop congressman was shut down. That was a nice memory from 2012 election as the town hall meeting was carried by media. GOP learned that night they better get on board the RE train its Rolling!
Good for those Iowan fellas they knew where their butter was coming from not forgetful like the Ohio, Mich, Wisc . , auto workers who were not appreciative to Obama for saving their industry. Such is life.
The British people threw out Churchill after the War so much for appreciating his great leadership etc. The Flawed Human condition it seems is timeless and never goes away !
As for solar yes most of the panels are made off shore now. Not all. But the rest of the components to the biggest degree are made in USA. especially racking , trackers , controls, Inverters etc. The electric cable and connectors etc. So Solar and wind have been the best boost to the american economy that has real value in a while.
So we are doing right by it for sure.
Silent,
Strangely enough, as Trump modifies or retreats form his more extreme pledges he will gain, not lose, popularity with his followers who never took him all that literally anyway.
I hope the Wind industry keep manufacturing jobs in the USA. However, there’s always a fly in the ointment.
In 2015 the wind industry suffered 20% job losses in manufacturing and some factory closures occurred due to a lull caused by the expectation of the federal tax credit scheme expiring.
Although the scheme was renewed for the 2016-17 financial year,it’s future is in serious doubt.
That’s the problem with industries that are so dependent on government mandates or incentives. Both Solar and Wind will come under greater scrutiny, and many of the more creatively optimistic claims will be discredited.
This will cause a problem for manufacturers whose profits are marginal, and dependent on tax credit and increases in consumer rates to generate income.
We shal have to wait and see.
Yes, after the war returning soldiers voted labour. The result was a long period of union disruption and industrial sabotage , class warfare, political exhaustion, industrial and economic chaos, until anyone with intelligence, initiative and ambition emigrated.
Canada, US, Australia, NZ all benefited enormously from welcoming those fleeing the drab misery and repressiveness of the post war UK.
@ Robert good points you clarified got it now. You are right about improvements to high tech being needed.
@ Marco thanks for informing on what happened in UK in the 1950’s I was young and would read about this Brain Drain movement and such.
You reminded me of that time period. I think UK has recovered now but like all Western Countries Globalization has left them Hallowed out w concentrated wealth and lots of Poverty etc. Like the US.
Its a shame that when one political structure comes into fashion it does not have the Wisdom to know where the Balance Point is and Stop there . Balance Point like in Engr design for power plants, solar systems and HVAC , etc. etc. CHP etc.
My point Marco is that there is good in Capitalism and Socialism and Globalism but some mix of it but finding that balance point has proved Elusive for the political forces.
As many enlightened economists who are intellectually honest say the rampant winner take all capitalism we now are in can t continue as its Failing the majority of people in many Nations and is the reason for the discontent in the electorates.
Trumper won on this discontent. So what is he going to do? How is he going to address this. Will his policies work for the Common Person ???
I doubt it will be the right ways as his circle is part of the Elite that made this system. We shall see ???
Both sides get carried away and then end result is a division and unacceptance of the good points the other side offers . So ongoing Division and less Collaboration and Progress!
That is how I see things. The flawed human condition. Self limiting
Wind Technology costs have dropped so low that they can make it without the PTC credit after 2022 which is its end date. They probably can make it 2018 if the trumpster and his carbon masters decide to change the phaseout timeline for solar ITC credits and PTC for Wind because NATURAL gas prices will go up by then.
Marco Bear in mind that US is beginning to export Nat Gas to Mexico in large volumes, the flow thru the 4 pipes begins next year. That will increase price pressure on US prices to utilities as will the operation of the 3 LNG shipping terminals that have come on line last year. Canada gas is in decline so we are shipping more North now too. End result is higher fuel costs to electric utilities in US.
The utilities have brought on over 250,000 megawatts of Natural gas to replace dirty coal plants so increased gas demand in place.
The Economic consequence is increased LCOE price competitiveness for wind and Solar utility scale.
Yesterday I attended a Energy Conf sponsored by ERCOT the Texas grid operator and they showed the revised 10 yr Energy Generation plan for Texas.
Utility scale solar has a nice 15 to 20,000 megawatt project pipeline. The primary reason besides price is peak demand reduction. This is because the location of the solar farms is in West Tx. Great solar resource about 200 miles East of El Paso and south west of Odessa Tx for our foreign readers. Most of the population of Texas is East of there ,the load centers.
So at 3 to 6 pm in the load centers are peaking in demand and because of the solar time difference Mountain Time a hour after so the plants are in Full Sun and producing thru 7 to 8 pm Central time when the Central area needs it the most.
This is an Example of Location – Location how solar’s strong points can be leveraged for Maximizing Benefits. Single tracking solar is now $ .033cents per LCOE Kwhr.
Natural gas electricity due to Deregulated peak pricing at peak times is around $.12 to . 18 Cents per KWHR depends on peak load.
Further more The ERCOT Grid has decided to open up their Grid just ever so slightly. They are allowing a 3,000 Meg DC line from East of Houston to enter Louisiana for Export of excess wind power to the Southern States. They are going to call it the Southern Cross Line.
Trumpster can’t stop these private sector funded projects so there are good signs ahead in this case.
Nationally I do think there will be a slow down some what in the over all solar market due to other factors and maybe some push back from Carbon sector. Its unknown the extent at this time.
BTW the 10 year energy plan sees more coal closing in Tex and NO repeat NO new Nuclear units! Lawrence maybe you need to come on over and make your pitch in person.
So where would you invest your money?
Hillarys popular vote getting close to 2 million more votes there are some irregularities in some states?
It appears that a vote difference of 117,000 votes across 4 states is what Tipped this election. So NO there is Vote Mandate for Trumper! Just a technical mandate by Electoral college.
Carry on Mates
Silent,
I’m sure Wind Power is proving useful in Texas, but up North in Vermont (Home to Saunders and McKibbon)Wind has is so popular.
The newly elected Republican governor, Phil Scott, is keen to ban construction of new wind projects. In Grafton and Windham,and other towns in Vermont, voters rejected Wind project by big margins.
The result is surprising considering the tactics employed by the Wind companies. (imagine if a oil company employed the same election tactics),
Spanish Energy Company, Iberdrola, offered a bribe of $565,000 per year to be shared among 815 registered to remove their objections. The payments were to continue for 25 years.
However, it didn’t work. In Grafton, 60 percent of voters opposed the project. (235 votes opposed to 158 votes in favor). In Windham, the anti-wind sentiment was even stronger, with 64 percent voting against the project (181-101).
Statewide, the voters reacted by putting an outspoken Wind critic in the Governor’s mansion.
Interesting…
It’s just all the science deniers that haven’t grown up yet that oppose renewable energy. Sure, at first, it was expensive, but now I think we can all agree that RE energy is getting cheaper, that fossil fuels will eventually run dry (without RE) and that fossil fuels emit excess CO2 and pollution.
They have done their job well and we’ll certainly need them for a while longer until RE gets even cheaper (and until development of those elusive batteries). However, we all know that clean energy is the way of the future and that Trump represents a stumbling block to the science necessary for the best possible future.
You might have already thought this through but most science deniers haven’t… Imagine his ego trumping science research, space science, NASA’s asteroid deflection research, and also cutting money’s needed for climate research. That would reduce our future just like if some idiot stopped JFK’s Moon shot program. We wouldn’t have the internet right now (and many other spinoffs). Even nuclear research helped in figuring advanced metal allows.
Science deniers need to look past the only things they have right about this issue: that we should not dump money for other nations for so called climate change damage and silly carbon taxes!
Re: “The US is experiencing a very real border crisis.” Sometimes the “crisis is only in the mind (and at specific locations.) From both anecdotal and statistical sources immigration at the Southern US Border is now negative: more people are leaving than coming. This has been the case for some time.
“A Wall” is a multi billion dollar solution for a problem that does not exist. Estimates have been as high as 25 billion dollars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU8dCYocuyI with at least that same number within the first 7 years for maintenance costs. In addition it is another excuse for the Federal government to take land from private owners and essentially would be ineffective.
Breath,
You’re right. It is not a “crisis”. Rather, it is a chronic problem which is actually becoming less serious. However, politicians the world over divide people in attempts to increase their power, and that is exactly what is happening now.
You may have seen my post of 10:57 PM today. Right now there are Spanish speaking people working on a project on my house, although they do speak English as a second language. How many of them are here legally I don’t know and don’t ask questions; perhaps all of them are here legally. I have no complaints about them.
Frank, I did see your comments and agree with many if not all. In addition, I have traveled to many countries in central and South America. I have personally seen some of the conditions you describe.
I know of one story where a boy of 14 was captured and pressed into military service in the army. It took his family weeks to find him and weeks to effect his release. I know of huge swaths of land that are controlled by American Corporations under the protection of military bases. There are cases of American exploitation and criminal activity in those countries so that I think on balance we behave far worse in their countries than they do here.
And then when suffering from depressed economies some people make a difficult and dangerous journey to work in the US we toy with them. Today there is amnesty, tomorrow they are being locked up and if lucky deported. And then during the next crisis they will again be sought to help with the environmental clean up as cheap exploitable labor. If we are looking to stop criminal activity we may have to look in a mirror.
Breath,
It looks as though you know more about it than I do and what you wrote supports what I suspected.
There are things about the election that I do not understand. The “Christian” fundamentalists wanted to impeach president Bill Clinton because of his sleazy sexual behavior yet it looks as though Trumps behavior is far worse and the support him. So far as I can tell, they lack understanding of what is most important in Christianity. When Jesus was asked what is the most important law, the second half of what he quoted from the OT, somewhat condensed and which is known as the Summary of the Law, was to love thy neighbor as thyself. He followed that by saying, “On these two laws hang all the law and the prophets.”. And, to expand the definition of neighbor and define what He meant by love, he gave the parable of the Good Samatarian. That makes it inescapably clear that we must be concerned about other people. Obviously there is some room for discussion in how best to observe that, but nevertheless it must be observed.
So somehow we have to find ways of protecting our borders and still observe the Summary of the Law. Some, but not all, Europeans are doing a very good job of that, sometimes at the cost of considerable personal sacrifice. Simply locking the borders or making entry too difficult is not an option.
If the indigenous Americans had succeeded in locking out our ancestors, we would not be here.
Frank, when I look at the problems these migrations create I wonder at the impact if billions of people must move low lying areas due to flooding of their homes. Will we then say to them farmers must become fishers and you will have to build floating cities (slums) out of what is left of your homes while we watch storms steadily reduce their numbers in smug satisfaction that it has nothing to do with us?
It is easier to look at the world as lots of separate and distinct pieces when your piece is giving you satisfaction. Then it is more difficult to understand that masses of people will not recognize the (fiction?) of property rights when their piece is under water and their family is drowning.
Like this sometimes when we expand the issue we can see the “little” problems in sharper focus.
Frank, it may also be true that during illness and evening years we begin to appreciate a certain kind of wisdom and many of the things we thought were so very important become less so.
This sharper focus may be one of the reasons why some describe Europe as being “older” and “more mature” than the US.
“Borders” and “nationalism” did much to foster two world wars. Some feel all conflicts new and old are really about access and allocation of resources.
Religion can help to check some of our more violent and self centered impulses but then they also tend to create ideological borders. (To maintain a sense of identity?) There is more that can be said here but this is probably far enough afield.
Frank and Breath,
Your reaction to migration are consistent with the reactions from many well meaning, well-intentioned, compassionately moral individuals.
Regrettably, I believe your idealism is ill-conceived, and impractical. Whether you accept it or not, the governments of all nation states have a duty to maintain strict border and migration policies.
Like the military, officials enforcing these regulations must have clear, precise and inflexible objectives or the job becomes impossible. The officials are sustained in an often thankless, and heart-wrenching job, by clear rules supported by government and the majority of the populace.
Border protection, like the military, and sometimes law enforcement, are often dangerous, psychologically traumatic occupations. Discipline, training and conviction of performing an often unpleasant but essential public service, helps ameliorate fear and psychological trauma.
These service people have right to expect leadership, support and respect for their service from their superiors and elected President. They also deserve respect from the public whom they defend.
Australia is a very good example of why your compassionate moral concerns can create havoc and disaster, not only for the nation, but the very people whom you wish to help.
In the late 1990’s Australia’s very generous immigration policy had become deeply unpopular due to abuse. The confusing patchwork of inconsistent policies had become an often corrupt, mess. The involvement of the judiciary and multiplicity of legal cases was preventing the legal system to function, and social services were becoming overwhelmed.
The incoming Conservative government reformed law and the system of migration, bringing order to chaos, while still retaining (actually expanding) the national migrant intake.
Like all disciplined reforms, utopian ideas had to be jettisoned. Increased arrival by unacceptable number of illegal migrants from principly middle eastern,Muslim nations, as well as Tamils from Sri Lanka created a huge trade in “people smuggling’ using old, unseaworthy, dangerous craft.
The resulting death toll was horrendous. These queue jumping economic migrants,(often wrongly described as refugees)risked not only their lives and the lives of their children, but the lives of rescuers.
These migrants proved less easily assimilated and rapidly became resented by the existing community. Often easily radicalized, the youth of these migrants has proved fertile ground for home grown terrorists.
It’s true these renegades are only a small proportion of the new arrivals, but that’s all it takes for the general population to build prejudice. The experience has proved less successful due to a lack of assimilation, and acceptance by these migrants of the values and principles of their new home.
Of course I’m generalizing, because I’m illustrating the need for consistent public policy which must be of a general nature.
The Howard Conservative government reformed the immigration laws and by adopting the harsh, but effective policy of refusing illegal migrants to arrival on Australian soil, stymied the flow of illegal arrivals, saving thousands of lives and eradicating the highly profitable people smuggling trade.
The policy worked, within a relatively short time illegal arrivals by sea ceased and Australia was able to clear and close all the backlog in the detention centres.
Eleven years later the Australian Labour Party with it’s green Party allies, gained office and took a more compassionate stance. Within four years, Australia found itself once again overwhelmed by boat arrivals, while tragically thousands perished making the journey.
Once again Australia found itself with 35,000 illegals in detention, and an estimated wave of 1.2 million headed for it’s shores, and thousand perishing at sea. This tide of humanity caused problems not only for Australia, but all neighboring nations as migrants traveled though those on the way to the goal of arriving in Australia.
Once again, social services were overwhelmed the economy was in free-fall and the justice system was collapsing.
In a last desperate bid to retain office, the Labour Government(despite the Greens opposition) tried to revive the old policies of the conservatives.
Unfortunately, times had changed. The attempt to recreate what had once worked so effectively was implemented ineptly with poor planning and even worse administration.
By 2013, the newly elected Conservative government defied all predictions by quickly and efficiently bringing the situation back under control. After a short campaign, people smuggling and illegal migration by sea was eliminated .
Regrettably, a very small number of detainees remain as a sad consequence from Labour’s botched policies. Their plight is very unfortunate. The folk are condemned to live on a beautiful South Pacific Island, while the government tries to find a solution.
All of the 755 illegal migrants (including 128children), have been offered repatriation back to their countries of origin, with adequate guarantees of no fear from discrimination (most of these people are fleeing regimes or wars that no longer exist, like the Iraqi’s claimed to be fleeing persecution by Saddam Hussein, or the Tamil tigers.)
They’ve also been offered Australian financial and diplomatic protection and financial assistance to settle in neighboring countries.
What about the rights of hundreds of thousands of people awaiting legal migration. These migrants deeply resent those who jump the queue.
The Australian government has wisely, and with admirable resolution chosen the lesser of two evils. Although unfortunate for a few, this policy has saved thousands of lives .
It’s the right of citizens of every nation to decide on migration policies, just as it’s the right of every householder to determine whom they invite to share their home.
Demanding a strong, cohesive, enforceable migration policy, is not lacking in compassion, or racist. It’s consistent with the duty of a wise government to it’s citizens.
It’s also fair to prospective migrants to clearly explain the rules and obligations of Migration.
Marcopolo,
I have not carefully studied the situation in Oz. Nevertheless, the principals which I have stated stand. The challenge is to find ways to apply the principals without scrapping them. The high rate of suicide and violence experienced by refugees, many of whom are young children, on Papua New Guinea and other island nations to which refugees are being directed by Oz, would seem to indicate that changes should be made to policy and or laws.
I realize that home countries have given assurances that returning refugees will not be persecuted. It is unclear to what extent those assurances actually mean anything or whether Oz has investigated to see what returning refugees are actually experiencing.
Frank,
The situation for these people isn’t great. the fact that over 100 children are involved is very distressing, but what would you have the Australian government do? Abandon an effective policy which is working, and recreate the chaos and deaths of the previous administration ?
So far, no one has been able to suggest any practical changes in policy that would not be an unacceptable risk.
It’s sad, but until these people either accept their result of their own actions and return home (The government is satisfied and can guarantee their security. Saddam is dead, his regime no longer exists), likewise the Tamils could simply return to the Tamil province in India. India has no issue with Tamils.
If you think Europe is making a good job of accepting illegal, unsolicited migrants, you’re kidding yourself.
There’s growing anger and resentment among the European population, especially in Eastern Europe. That anger is not reflected in the media which tries to be politically correct, but is very evident in the growth of anti-migrant sentiment. The idea that if you are unhappy where you live, you have a right to simply move elsewhere, uninvited and unwelcome, is bizarre !
It’s also bad for the nation of origin. These countries need all their citizens to take part in nation building, they can’t simply run away.
It’s inconceivable to me that a city or 1.2 million people can be dominated by less than 20 thousand religious fanatics (mostly foreigners). The men (and women) of military age must outnumber these insurgents 20 or 30 to !.
Instead of running away, or collaborating, the civilians should have formed citizens defense forces and evicted these bandits.
France and other major European nations have area’s and ghetto’s where the French people, and even the French police dare not go.
It’s not “discriminatory” or “racist” to simply not wish to import trouble and social disharmony in unmanageable numbers.
The local inhabitants have a right not to be intimidated for wishing to preserve their way of life, by a liberal elite with irresponsible policies. They have right to demand their government protect the sort of society they built.
Not listening, not heeding this vast silent majority, results in the rise of populists like Trump. (and worse).
Marcopolo,
You wrote that Oz policy is working. It may be working very well, but that is basically a matter of semantics. In fact, some people no doubt see the suicides as a positive thing and proof that the policy is working. One would hope that they are in the minority. In any case, there are people in Oz who are very disturbed by the way Oz is dealing with it and see it as inhumane while other people are quite satisfied.
Regarding how Europe is dealing with the refugee problem, I am extremely well aware that Europe is not one unified country and that not all European countries, or even the people an any specific country, are dealing with it in the same manner.
There are many aspects to the refugee problem and I have no intention of covering all of them. That would be impossible anyway because situations keep changing. All countries, including both the U.S. and Oz, have checkered records. To imply that how Oz or any other country is handling the refuge problem is ideal and incapable of improvement would be total nonsense.
Frank,
There is very little in the human condition that is ‘ideal’ !
The Australian ‘solution’ is far from ideal. But like many policies, it’s the best policy available.
You are correct when you say situations like these differ widely. In 1978 Australia experienced the highest influx of desperate Vietnamese refugees. These survivors of a perilous boat journey arrived on our shores or waited patiently in refugee camps in Malaysia, Philippines etc for resettlement.
These people had suffered dreadfully, many lost their lives at sea or at the hands of Thai and Malay pirates. (nearly 70% of refugees lost their lives).
These unfortunate refugees were initially treated badly by the Australian left, who through the Union movement whipped up racist, Xenophobic sentiment. ( they weren’t alone). I’m ashamed to say, Australia like the rest of the world did nothing to suppress the actions of the pirates until New Zealand shamed the world by send two small warships and after much urging persuaded the Philippine Navy to also assist.
At the time I defied my superiors, took leave, and openly agitated politically and legally for the rights of these refugees to claim asylum in Australia.
I’m relieved to say, the attitude of Australians quickly changed and Vietnamese and Cambodian refugees (boat people) have not only been welcomed, but have become an integrated and respected part of Australian Society.
It helped that these people were genuine refugees. Australia was not only the first place of safety, but as former allies had a moral claim on Australia.
As you point out, the situation has changed. It’s difficult for Australians to accept the reasoning behind a ‘refugee’ fleeing persecution from Sri Lanka for being a Tamil, undertaking a 4000 mile dangerous journey by ocean in an unseaworthy craft, rather than 30 miles to India (or 300 miles to Tamil state).
These illegal arrivals in Australia, like many in Europe, are elective or economic migrants. In many cases, Australia is not the ultimate destination. Having acquired Australian nationality can travel to Europe or the US.
These illegal migrants have often traveled to Australia through several modern, Muslim nations where they were safe from persecution. in these nations they learned they were entering Australia illegally. These actions removes their status as ‘refugees’ or asylum seekers.
Sometimes, it’s the melancholic duty of any authority to be forced to implement a policy of being ‘cruel to be kind’.
@ Breath your comment about how you see the election of trump as a ploy to do more Looting of the Commons is a accurate assessment for sure.
The posting for some reason does not show up in the recent chain of postings to this ongoing discussion???
Good post agree to the Max…..that is the Dark Shadow of this Era of Trumpism…
The voters of America have a bad habit of electing or selecting these incompetent GOP administrations that win on false arguments and many Straw man arguments.
Once in Power their conservative excesses take over and they tend to create Wars we dont need or fund, then they liberalize the rules to the economy and the Wall st Vultures inflict their economic exploitation onto the system we end up hurting financially and the lost tax revenue goes into the hands of elite few etc.
The gomer masses get hurt too but fail to see its their master Whipping them!
Debt goes up and everyone gets nervous and then when a decent Dem gets elected they get elected into this bad economic situation so most of the effort has to be made getting the American Car out of the Ditch !
This is what confronted Obama and it drained his over all policy Vision and he was fought and dis honored all along the way. His victories were dismissed and over shadowed by the lingering ashes of the damages done by the previous administration.
First economic program Trumpster states is $1 Trillion Infrastructure and everyone Roars great – Mr Obama tried to do that 5 times since 2009. He was blocked by the same trumper cheerleaders who now support it. Most be because they have ways to carve out revenue for their campaign master funders in the deal ! Buyer beware! Scam in the making.
The public remains confused as that media remains complicit in keeping the public confused and conflicted. There is more ad revenue in confliction rather than positive news and progress for all.
So we return to people who will push for more policies that will only Hallow Out our system further and hurt the very people who voted for this fraud as a Fix!!
Hard to find Optimism in this Trumperian ERA but as I said time to Stand Tall and go about our business best we can. All storms pass in time….the question is just how much damage can we adsorb as we have been Hallowed out severely from my view.
The discussion has now diverted into the Immigration and related issues. Well closely linked to Trumpism for sure part of his anger backlash appeal.
As a native of the Border areas I have Extensive on the Front Lines living knowledge of the consequences of much too Open Borders, failed policies, greed, corruption from both sides and the social . economic and political consequences of mass immigration and flawed enforcement.
In addition the continuing Political Pandering by Both Sides to the entire situation over a 35 year period.
I long ago like many of my intellectually honest Progressive or Liberal oriented friends all said that this simmering issue would grow into and manifest itself into ugly and distorted arguments about the Symptoms. We saw the Train Wreck coming. Any discussion with various others usually turned into a ugly denial discussion and nothing changed. It just grew and grew and the cost grew and grew. Now there is Huge Backlash to all of this. And this is part of the Backlash to Elites who allowed this to happen.
It is Part of the appeal of the Trumpster even if his deport-ion plans are extreme . It is questionable if he even trys to pull that off due to fear of National Backlash of huge proportions. Plus the questionable immorality of some aspects of this harsh action.
We will soon learn. ??!!
I think Craig this is a subject worthy of discussion if we can tie into energy or Sustainability perhaps ? Its complex.
Some of the commentators have touched on Close to the Root cause of this Global Migration crisis. Yes it is Humanitarian and good people need to step up and help the less fortunate is my initial progressive response.
How ever Open Borders is a prescription for chaos, social disruption and economic and political instability.
Global Warming is driving much of this exodus and migration of people. So climate deniers this also part of the issue which you deny. We are just beginning to see the migration issues caused by sufferring in Africa etc. Our foolish wars have also destabilized many nations.
The consequences of too much excessive SHOCK and AWE WAR videos photo clips !
Mate Marco thank you for your excellent Blow by Blow description of the Australian experience with mass migrations by hurting people. Well described. You explained Reality very well. More people need to refine their thinking in this area.
Yes Europe is now second guessing its foolish open border immigration policies that are manifesting themselves into social and cultural clashes.
The Liberals may have helped create the backlash that Nationalist Marie La Penn the French version of trumpism promises to sTOP AND fIX !!!!
Failure of good political policies in Middle East and Africa have led to the exodus and fleeing North for the good life. They wanted cheap labor just like America has done , Germany ‘s economic miracle has some Ugly stains once the Onion begins to be pulled back ! Ask Turkey.
Hark !
All those conservative gomers in the US your Icon and Saint that you all like to pay ongoing Homage and Reverence to ronnie reagan the two bit class F movie actor should be the Target of your Rage against excessive Immigration. He tore up the employer fines and sanctions contained in 1988 Simpson Mazzoli Immigration Act.
When he did this there were around 4 million immigrants from Mexico and related , so his failure to stand up to Corporate Americas Lust for more Profits at the expense of American workers led to a flood all thru the 1990’s. HE sold us OUT AND GOT AWAY WITH A JELLY BEAN FOLLY. DISGUSTING LEGACY!
Contrary to Political correctness of many fuzzy thinking liberals and politicos – the mass immigration increase in the 1990’s led to good Union jobs in Meat Packing and construction becoming dumbed down to lower wages and poorer working conditions as immigrants were sought for these jobs by the construction and meat packing operators just to name a few sectors. This created poverty and stress amongst many american workers . I saw this first hand as I worked the Heartland areas all thru the 1990’s and early 2000’s.
A person has to be Blind or intellectually clueless or dishonest not to see the damages to the locals that was done No wonder there is a Big Backlash and people blindly cheer to trumpsters fear messages.
Make no mistake I am not part of it but I want a better solution.
These tales are forgotten by the ruling Elites. The politicos want votes and the Corporations want more Money.
I seriously doubt if even 25 % to 50 % of all gomers in the US even know what the Simpson Mazzoli Act was etc! They have no clue how reagan is Complicit in making the problem Worse ! Simpson Mazzoli would have taken away the job magnet that drives the influx.
Trumper was asked on a National debate in front of Chris Matthews on TV by Wisconsin Dairy men who employ hundreds of illegals what he was going to do. He dodged the question and one could see 2 Republicon Gomers admitting they break the law!
America had and still has a Illegal Employer Issue more than a Immigrant Problem If we took strong legal actions against the employers and did a few other things there would be no jobs so the people would stop coming here. Period!
Many of the refugees from Central America are collateral damages from our Failed Imperialism and they are Sorrows of Empire coming home to roost here now. We created much of the chaos and pain in these other countries. Many americans who are busy waving flags and shouting jingoistic chants of USA are Ignorant of Reality they are complicit in creating!
The Truth of the Matter and these are indeed Complex matters is that the Solutions we need and mankind needs are not to be found in the simple slogans of building Wall s we dont need. Blowing money we need in other places. We need to fix the Global economy that is failing the masses is my take.
We shall see where this goes but Honest discussions and some new thinking on the subject needs to be done. Both sides are complicit in BS.
Congratulations Marco that Aussies seem to have figured out a more sane policy after flirting with political motivated but unrealistic approaches in trying to be kind. We need to fix the Root Causes of this Global Issue that is the challenge.
As Churchill said Democracy is Messy system but the best one we have.
In closing dont think I blame most of US problems on Immigrants I don’t. It is our Corporate Greed that drives the fires! both regionally and globally.
Corporate Greed is Riding ON or is a large Part of the Trumper’s Coat Tails .
Hold on to your Wallets!
We shall see All bets are Off.
I didn’t write this; it came from a different Craig.
You make some good points here nonetheless.
@ Frank thanks for the good humanity you speak to on these complicated matters.
You and Breath allude to more Looting of the Commons by the new Regime. This is going to get deep dark thick real soon.
I am watching the listing of new appointments to cabinets etc. Yes indeed these are the Dragons from the Swamp – they are not being drained the Swamp is moving into the Whitehouse !
Trumper struck a deal today w NY Atty general He agreed to pay $ 25 million fine for Trump Scam University in NY. Also the state gets some money. But there will be money for many of the claimants to get some money reimbursement’s. .
So Trumper gets elected President and he is settling w courts. he has 60 plus more cases pending and the big one on Trump Univ in California with the Judge he mocked.
What a National Disgrace how far America has Fallen
what are all those angry white boys and girls thinking about this ????
Imperfect Justice but that is the way the Elites play it. Elite justice custom made for the anti Elite candidate!
Silent,
I lived in Fiji from 1994 to 2004. A few letters in the “Fiji Times” have commented favorably on Trumpet, so today I sent a letter for publication. People in Fiji are well aware that climate change is causing sea levels to rise and that entire small villages are being moved because of it. My letter follows:
*****
Friday, November 18, 2016
Subject: The Trump Disaster (207 words)
Fiji’s PM, Mr. Vorque Bainimarama, has invited the U.S. president elect, Mr. Donald Trump, to see the damage that climate change is already causing to Fiji.
Mr. Trump asserts that climate change is a ploy by China to damage American industry. However, there is agreement among climate scientists that climate change is real and human-caused.
Mr. Trump’s derogatory statements about Muslims, Jews, blacks, and other minorities, have greatly increased the frequency of hate crimes. Recently, a hijab-wearing Muslim student stated that she has three times been harassed for being Muslim. That had not happened before. Some Muslims have had their hijabs torn off. Mosques have been defaced with painted hate symbols.
A headline in the 17 November edition of “The New Yorker” magazine reads, “HATE ON THE RISE AFTER TRUMP’S ELECTION”. The magazine is available on the Internet.
Perhaps now people in Fiji who looked favorably upon Mr. Trump will have second thoughts.
Because of a peculiarity in the election of presidents, on rare occasions a candidate with a minority of votes can be elected president. Thus, Mr. Trump was elected even though Mrs. Clinton received about 1.2 million more votes.
A president has limited power so the situation may be less bad than might be supposed.
****
Because they publish almost all of my letters, it will probably be published within the next day or so.
Trumpet also wants to establish strong barriers to “protect” American industry. I have very strong reservations about that at least partly because it could start a trade war (it has happened before) which would greatly reduce American exports. I’m not necessarily opposed to making any changes to trade agreements, but they have to be worked out very carefully to avoid negative consequences.
Frank,
The evidence of climate change effects on pacific islands is not as clear as you may think. Authoritative studies have shown most islands actually increase in size and height in response to rises in sea levels.
There’s a fine line when it comes to limiting free speech. If every political candidate and commentator had to avoid controversial advocacy, or provoking debate for fear of initiating anti-social behaviour by extremists or bullies, all free speech would cease.
Trump is not responsible for the acts you attribute to him. Donald Trump never authorized or endorsed such behaviour. Indeed, the bad behaviour attributed to his supporters during rallies has been revealed as the acts of agent-provocateurs paid by campaign officials of his opponents ! ( possibly with the knowledge of Hillary Clinton).
While I’m not enthralled to see Donald Trump elected President, I don’t see any point in trying to denigrate or deny the legitimacy of his administration unfairly.
Surely it’s time to reach out to everyone, and sell the best, most positive aspects of the environmental message, instead of concentrating on more bitter divisiveness, which can only serve to strengthen reactionary attitudes ?
Marcopolo,
I wasn’t concerned about MOST Pacific islands. Rather, I was concerned about the ones which ARE experiencing problems because of rising ocean levels. It IS a problem in Fiji, and they ARE actually having to move villages because of it. It is an established fact which cannot rationally be denied. The fact that SOME Pacific islands actually increase in size and height is no comfort to those which are experiencing very serious problems result from increasing sea levels. Some Pacific islands will actually have to be abandoned.
People who, by their statements cause hateful acts, generally do deny responsibility. I lived in Minneapolis when Anita Bryant included it on her tour. She traveled around the country making hateful statements about gay persons and accusing them of child molestation. In Minneapolis and other places where she traveled, violent acts and vandalism were committed in her name. The perpetuators even said so, so how can it be denied? Of course she denied responsibility and asserted that she did not approve of violence, but the evidence was inescapably clear that, even if she did not intentionally encourage violent acts, her speeches did cause them. There is more than sufficient evidence that hate filled speech DOES result in violence whether it is intended or not!
It is not unfair to point out that hate filled speech does result in violent acts, even if the speaker does not intend them. It would be irresponsible not to point out the clear cause and effect relationship.
Frank,
Not all the effects of coastline, including islands, loss or gain is automatically the result of climate change. It becomes all too easy to blame all sorts of perfectly natural phenomenon on climate change.
The are towns in the UK located more than 20 miles from the sea, yet only 300 years ago were bustling ports. Likewise in the Pacific Ocean some islands were once much larger yet others have grown considerably.
The science is by no means certain and although climate change could be a significant factor, it’s possible that other factors are more probable and significant.
As I said, the line between sincere debate and instigating hate is difficult. But no advocate should be silenced or afraid to speak out for fear of being labeled politically incorrect and blamed for the aberrant behavior of others.
It’s exactly that kind of smug political correctness that gave rise to Trump.
Marcopolo,
Rarely is anything 100% certain. We have to make decisions when the evidence is not 100% certain. If we always waited for 100% certainty before making decisions, we’d be in real trouble. The evidence is overwhelming, though not 100% certain, that it is CO2 induced climate change that is causing ocean levels to rise thereby imperiling Pacific Island countries as well as imperiling people who live in coastal areas of larger countries. It is 100% certain that rising ocean levels are imperiling some Pacific Island countries; there is zero doubt. People cannot be mistaken that they are being flooded out of their homes. It is not their imagination that they are gradually being submerged.
We have to make decisions based on the best available information. The amount of risk which is acceptable depends on the consequences of making the wrong decision. For example, suppose that you were driving behind a slow car on a very twisty road were there was no place to pass safely. You’d been driving for miles and never encountered even one oncoming car. So, the risk of having a collision would be very low if you passed. Would you pass? I certainly hope not; the consequences of encountering an oncoming car would be too great even though it probably would not happen. Moreover, you foolish behavior could be fatal to others. Similarly, even if the probability that we are causing climate change were very low (which it is not), the consequences would be too great to accept even a low probability.
Frank,
On the other hand, for more than 50 years there was an absolute consensus among even the most eminent medical authorities about the causes of duodenal ulcers.
The accepted causes were fatty foods, poor diet, stress etc, and when all all other treatments proved ineffective, which was invariably the case, the patient underwent extensive and often risky surgery.
In fact, as two young Australia researchers discovered, duodenal ulcers are caused by a bacteria and easily treated with a specialized anti-biotic.
The point I’m making is just because the cause of something is popularly assumed, it doesn’t make it accurate.
This is not to say that the effects of climate change won’t occur, but that attributing anything and everything to climate change is absurd.
Did you know that in the Fijian archipelago there are at least two substantial sunken islands ?
The islands were most likely once populated and sank slowly over a period of 2-400 years, finally disappearing about 600 years ago.
Other Pacific Island are revealed to be less than 400 years above water level, but have developed substantial vegetation.
I’m not dismissing the effects of climate change, simply pointing out that making assumptions without a deep understanding may result in entirely, or partially, inaccurate conclusions.
How does an erroneous conclusion help local inhabitants ?
@ Crig thanks there have been man y good points made by several of your commentators.
This thread continues to Roll On thee may be a need for a pessimism under trumpism perhaps??
Feb will tell the tale once he makes a public address of his first 100 days.
Breath on wind made that comment that I saw but not in the chain of postings He was Right On
Frank I like your letter and your activism. You are trying to Shed Light to Fijii people what is really going on.
Good On You .
You are trying to get Sir Marco back into the Framework of what you originally said about Islands people needing help. I wish the CNN’s and Discovery and Nat Geographic TV channels would spend more money producing documentaries and air them in Prime Time in a effort to educate and elevate the public’s perceptions of these tragedy situations developing Globally from Global Warming .
Saturate the airwaves drop some foolish sitcoms ……I am dreaming on I know…
Silent,
Thank you for your support.
There is one Pacific Island country which has bought land in Fiji so people can move to Fiji as rising ocean levels make living impossible. Some of those Pacific Island countries are on coral islands which are very low. When there is a hurricane, the storm surge causes destruction over much of the island. Even when that doesn’t occur, their water supplies become brackish as ocean water intrudes into the aquifers. Many people in those countries will have to migrate. Fiji is more fortunate because most of the people live on volcanic islands which are higher, but even there, people along the coast are having trouble which is why some villages are being moved farther inland. The people are very well aware of the cause, i.e., excessive CO2 emissions.
Fiji, and other Pacific Island countries, also have to deal with hurricanes. The hurricanes are becoming more frequent and stronger because of climate change, a fact of which they are very well aware. They are now realizing that they will have to construct buildings which are strong enough to withstand hurricanes. There are no safe places to evacuate people the way we do here in the U.S. since a hurricane can cover an entire island. Because the U.S. is a bigger and more prosperous country, we can more easily deal with such destruction, but it is an extreme hardship for small Pacific Island countries.
Until I read Marcopolo’s post, I had not been aware that some Pacific Island countries are becoming bigger and higher. Of course that is no help to the islands which are not.
@ Frank
You are welcome Frank.
I find your concerns for the Forgotten people in the Islands refreshing and consistent with good Humanity. Too many Americans who have been isolated from the uglier sides of reality due to two large Oceans and a Abundance of Natural resources has led to our culture being too cushy and spoiled.
We are thoughtless at times in our concerns for other Nations and Cultures. Our insensitivity manifests itself in multiple ways.
Gien the political era we are entering it seems that the selfishness attributes are getting the Top billing on the Stage.
I dont know where this is going myself.
I do know that a lot of conservative elites in Miami along with all the Dems and Progressives are going to be dealing with rising sea waters in the Miami area.
I hope I live long enough to see rich selfish global warming deniers and money addicted elites suffer and their Villas get flooded down in Miami area.
Rough Justice but well deserved. Their gated communities and all the Latin American elites that took over Miami have it coming. They vote for selfishness continuously.
The Western Nations should band together and get real serious about addressing Global Warming and find ways to make it a economic program so that the public buys in and sees job growth as a result.
We need to take technology to those Islands and also to reduce carbon burning ASAP. create New Industries new ways to make money. New Jobs.
Good for you Frank that you relate to the struggles of the Forgotten People over there. take care
Check out this cartoon about the election of Trump:
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/15/1599386/-Cartoon-Not-helping?detail=email&link_id=1&can_id=dfdaa44d5c3d384b7eaef6db4870ec45&source=email-cartoon-not-helping&email_referrer=cartoon-not-helping&email_subject=cartoon-not-helping
Here is a letter from today’s “Fiji Times” about climate change:
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Lunik Liu, Sydney Australia
“PM Voreqe Bainimarama’s plea to Donald Trump not to ignore the plight of Pacific Island nations affected by climate change is a desperate call for help at the eleventh hour.
Rising sea levels and unusual weather patterns are already wreaking havoc in the lives of islanders across the Pacific.
It is an accepted fact that people are suffering now in low-lying areas and unless the rest of the world shoulder responsibility for resettlement and financial assistance, we will see a humanitarian tragedy in our lifetime.
Here is a message for Donald Trump, the new leader of the free world. It comes from Pink Floyd’s 1987 song, On the Turning Away.
“Don’t accept that what’s happening
Is just a case of others’ suffering
Or you’ll find that you’re joining in…
The turning away”
I take my hat off to PM Bainimarama who has made it his crusade to speak on behalf of the “speechless who stand in silent accord”.
It is a world that we all must share, it’s not enough just to stand and stare.”
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Although the letter writer is in Australia, almost certainly he is originally from Fiji and knows very well what is happening there.
Here is a link to an article in today’s “Fiji Times” about the effects of climate change:
http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=379106
Here is a quotation from the article:
” ‘As the region of the world that is destined to bear the worst brunt of the effects of climate change, we have been given a crucial platform to put our case,’ he said.”